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Khirre Phul Gulab De @ VPD 2013

kdshah

Member
Messages
39
Here's our performance from VPD this weekend. Big thanks to our liasons Komal and Neelam for helping us out all weekend and to Hardeep Singh and Jaggy Singh for tying our paggan.


Thanks to Kanwar Johal and Anooj Trivedi (AKT Productions) for making our mix and doing a fantastic job.


Shoutout to UNC Bhangra Elite for representing NC!


We would love to hear any and all constructive criticism!


Jodis:
Red- Sumeet Jindal & Raj Shah
Purple- Alan Guan & Kuntal Shah
Green- Varun Goswami & Kanwar Johal
Pink- Akash Mahtani & Nikhil Batra
Yellow- Harsh Desai & Bianca Patel
Blue- Iftekhar Hassan & Nikki Chatrath

Khirre Phul Gulab De at VPD 2013
 

Archana

Member
Messages
289
Great performance! Energy was up and down at times with a few dancers. A few people's forms were different and some mistakes, but overall really entertaining set. Props to the two girls who held it down as being guys!! LOVED the maula mere segment!
 

squashes

Akash
Messages
31
Warning: Pseudo-treatise on judging incoming =P (Not really, but sorry for the long post haha)

Ya'll ripped this set. I'm trying to speak objectively here, but of course I have danced with you all before =P
Seriously though, this was by far the most entertaining set of the night in my opinion. (and still very clean)
I'm really surprised you guys (and 2 girls) didn't place to be honest.

It was clear that the judges that night were looking for a lot of synchronicity, but I feel like they didn't quite respect the very nice balance of entertaining/folk you guys have.
This set could win anywhere imo when executed to it's max. I guess my only advice is that the dancer skill has to be more equal, but I wish that wasn't the number one priority of so many judges.
Sometimes I feel as though most judges are really just scouring the stage constantly looking for the weakest link at any given moment, instead of looking at the set as the team is trying to present it. It reduces the emphasis placed on entertainment factor simply because the judges aren't looking to be entertained, they are looking to judge everyone first, and be entertained only when they can't find anything that's off.
This isn't fair to teams who make entertainment their #1 priority (like yours). Ideally I feel like judges should judge teams as teams try to present themselves, and then make a holistic comparison of which team executed what they were trying to bring to the stage with more overall value. Perhaps that is too hard to quantify or even qualify, but it should be what they aim for imo. It doesn't make sense for any one style to just constantly trump other styles in every circumstance.


When a team decides that they want to create a highly entertaining and fun set as their FIRST priority it automatically makes cleanliness priority number two. This makes them lose every time to a team that decides cleanliness is priority number one, especially nowadays when most judging has become about cleanliness.
It encourages teams to play it far too safe. This has been said in the past in many threads, but when judges do this it stagnates bhangra as an art form imo.
Bhangra needs teams like you to keep doing what you do, and that won't happen if you all aren't rewarded at all for doing so. Luckily you guys love dancing enough to keep it up.

An example of some solid judging would be at Elite 8 last year. Ignoring any controversy over who should've won first, the top three teams were NYPD, UNC, and JJ according to the judges. These teams had three very different styles and all three executed their sets as they were meant to be executed. The judges still were able to respect all three different styles and recognized that those were the best three teams of the night. It was not purely about some one ideal style that trumped all others.

Sure some teams showcase certain dancers more at the front for certain moves because they are significantly better at those moves, but why constantly punish a team for having a few weak dancers in a really challenging set? This weakest link judging is far too harsh in some cases. Obviously some teams are trying to put their best foot forward as they push the envelope. Instead of punishing a team for having to do that, why don't you acknowledge it and just treat it as an overall negative factor, but reward them for pushing the envelope. Furthermore, reward a team who was able to rotate all their dancers through more evenly, so long as that other team's set as a whole was still close to the same level in other respects.


Judges always say bhangra is a team dance, so everyone should dance together, and that's the excuse for focusing so much on everyone dancing as one. However, obviously we know bhangra is a team dance. We are dancing together...everyday in practice, and on a stage. At the end of the day though we are giving a performance. Some teams want to showcase how clean they can be, that's their strong suit. However, a lot of all-guys teams like you have a lot of individual talent to showcase at certain parts, but judges are no longer into individuals as dancers (which I can understand, but don't agree with 100%). I guess you will have to make everyone dance even more similarly to win in the current circuit.

For some reason judges are still happy to see the same kind of formations and moves just executed simply and robotically, and have no respect for the stamina/creativity it takes to execute/invent these harder sets. I'm not saying there isn't value to the former, but I do think things are very biased towards the former right now in the circuit, instead of a proper balance of judging (obviously this is a gross generalization on judges, but I do have to speak in general right now to talk about the circuit as a whole).
Usually "folkness" is cited to discourage the lack of what some all-guys teams find to be entertaining, and I generally agree with that. I'm not a fan of stop-and-go/rehashed gimmicks from other teams and hip-hop performances, really modern styles, etc.
However, I feel like the entertainment in this set was really tasteful, unique, flowed well (no stop-and-go gimmicks), and the set was still very folk. Dancer skill was incredibly high, and energy was so high for a such a hard set. I had so much fun watching you guys have fun dancing.

Sure I have to admit other teams were more uniform in their dancer ability, but is that really so great? Are you all not doing the move close enough to each other? Can you all not have some fun on stage when your whole purpose of dancing in the first place is to entertain? Did you guys really deserve 4th behind all three of those other teams? Is their style (which were all really similar) actually just better than yours? I don't think so. I think cleanliness and dancer synchronicity were over valued this year at VPD, and at the end of the day it really only hurt you guys specifically because clearly your style was not equally respected by the judges for whatever reason.

At the end of the day, we have to respect the judges opinions because they have much experience and probably have many reasons for why they feel the way they do. Personally when I talked to the judges after the comp they seemed incredibly open, honest, and I agreed with everything they had to say about our set at least (UNC), but I know you guys were disappointed, so hopefully ya'll take this set to another comp and it goes better for you. (TAKE ME TOO!) Perhaps you guys just had to be a little bit cleaner to place, but I feel like in other comps, this would've gotten first. (First by a long shot even)


Hopefully this post makes people think a little bit. I have nothing against clean well executed sets, I dance for UNC for god's sake, lol. I'm just saying the folk all-guys style really is underrated in the game, when it should be on a more equal footing imo. Respect it for what it is, don't just make comparisons of form and formations without equally fair and critical comparisons of creativity and difficulty etc. A lot of all-guys teams are being forced to go to a more modern style now just to clean up more and still have challenging sets. It's detrimental to the circuit and they still lose too (unless they go to a "modern comp") because it becomes less folk...

These are just a lot of my thoughts on the matter, I still want to give a big congrats to the placing teams. I know you all deserved to be in the top three, especially because I was incredibly happy with how the judges evaluated us (UNC), I have NO complaints there.
However, hopefully no one is offended in my saying KPGD was definitely on your level last night for the reasons stated prior. I think the judges just happened to have a very predetermined mindset of what to expect/look for at this comp. KPGD's style probably caught them off gaurd, and they didn't make the best evaluation of KPGD specifically given the situation imo.

Should a pretty clean but unique and challenging set beat a very clean although much simpler set? Well clearly there's no way to know without watching them.
But should the only such former set at a competition lose to 3 of the latter sets?? Highly unlikely imo.


tl;dr
You guys had the best risk to execution ratio last night and ya'll were on the podium for me. <3
 

Kush

Active Member
Messages
1,401
need to refocus on bringing all dancers up to par. You guys have proven the creativity is there time after time. but the execution factor continues to be the deal breaker when it comes to placing. While I definitely agree with squashes argument, this isnt a new shortcoming, and never ever will it HURT you to have all your dancers on par and in sync. Also, sumeet... what happened to last performance? lol.
 

Ashveer

New Member
Messages
492
squashes said:
Warning: Pseudo-treatise on judging incoming =P (Not really, but sorry for the long post haha)

Ya'll ripped this set. I'm trying to speak objectively here, but of course I have danced with you all before =P
Seriously though, this was by far the most entertaining set of the night in my opinion. (and still very clean)
I'm really surprised you guys (and 2 girls) didn't place to be honest.

It was clear that the judges that night were looking for a lot of synchronicity, but I feel like they didn't quite respect the very nice balance of entertaining/folk you guys have.
This set could win anywhere imo when executed to it's max. I guess my only advice is that the dancer skill has to be more equal, but I wish that wasn't the number one priority of so many judges.
Sometimes I feel as though most judges are really just scouring the stage constantly looking for the weakest link at any given moment, instead of looking at the set as the team is trying to present it. It reduces the emphasis placed on entertainment factor simply because the judges aren't looking to be entertained, they are looking to judge everyone first, and be entertained only when they can't find anything that's off.
This isn't fair to teams who make entertainment their #1 priority (like yours). Ideally I feel like judges should judge teams as teams try to present themselves, and then make a holistic comparison of which team executed what they were trying to bring to the stage with more overall value. Perhaps that is too hard to quantify or even qualify, but it should be what they aim for imo. It doesn't make sense for any one style to just constantly trump other styles in every circumstance.


When a team decides that they want to create a highly entertaining and fun set as their FIRST priority it automatically makes cleanliness priority number two. This makes them lose every time to a team that decides cleanliness is priority number one, especially nowadays when most judging has become about cleanliness.
It encourages teams to play it far too safe. This has been said in the past in many threads, but when judges do this it stagnates bhangra as an art form imo.
Bhangra needs teams like you to keep doing what you do, and that won't happen if you all aren't rewarded at all for doing so. Luckily you guys love dancing enough to keep it up.

An example of some solid judging would be at Elite 8 last year. Ignoring any controversy over who should've won first, the top three teams were NYPD, UNC, and JJ according to the judges. These teams had three very different styles and all three executed their sets as they were meant to be executed. The judges still were able to respect all three different styles and recognized that those were the best three teams of the night. It was not purely about some one ideal style that trumped all others.

Sure some teams showcase certain dancers more at the front for certain moves because they are significantly better at those moves, but why constantly punish a team for having a few weak dancers in a really challenging set? This weakest link judging is far too harsh in some cases. Obviously some teams are trying to put their best foot forward as they push the envelope. Instead of punishing a team for having to do that, why don't you acknowledge it and just treat it as an overall negative factor, but reward them for pushing the envelope. Furthermore, reward a team who was able to rotate all their dancers through more evenly, so long as that other team's set as a whole was still close to the same level in other respects.


Judges always say bhangra is a team dance, so everyone should dance together, and that's the excuse for focusing so much on everyone dancing as one. However, obviously we know bhangra is a team dance. We are dancing together...everyday in practice, and on a stage. At the end of the day though we are giving a performance. Some teams want to showcase how clean they can be, that's their strong suit. However, a lot of all-guys teams like you have a lot of individual talent to showcase at certain parts, but judges are no longer into individuals as dancers (which I can understand, but don't agree with 100%). I guess you will have to make everyone dance even more similarly to win in the current circuit.

For some reason judges are still happy to see the same kind of formations and moves just executed simply and robotically, and have no respect for the stamina/creativity it takes to execute/invent these harder sets. I'm not saying there isn't value to the former, but I do think things are very biased towards the former right now in the circuit, instead of a proper balance of judging (obviously this is a gross generalization on judges, but I do have to speak in general right now to talk about the circuit as a whole).
Usually "folkness" is cited to discourage the lack of what some all-guys teams find to be entertaining, and I generally agree with that. I'm not a fan of stop-and-go/rehashed gimmicks from other teams and hip-hop performances, really modern styles, etc.
However, I feel like the entertainment in this set was really tasteful, unique, flowed well (no stop-and-go gimmicks), and the set was still very folk. Dancer skill was incredibly high, and energy was so high for a such a hard set. I had so much fun watching you guys have fun dancing.

Sure I have to admit other teams were more uniform in their dancer ability, but is that really so great? Are you all not doing the move close enough to each other? Can you all not have some fun on stage when your whole purpose of dancing in the first place is to entertain? Did you guys really deserve 4th behind all three of those other teams? Is their style (which were all really similar) actually just better than yours? I don't think so. I think cleanliness and dancer synchronicity were over valued this year at VPD, and at the end of the day it really only hurt you guys specifically because clearly your style was not equally respected by the judges for whatever reason.

At the end of the day, we have to respect the judges opinions because they have much experience and probably have many reasons for why they feel the way they do. Personally when I talked to the judges after the comp they seemed incredibly open, honest, and I agreed with everything they had to say about our set at least (UNC), but I know you guys were disappointed, so hopefully ya'll take this set to another comp and it goes better for you. (TAKE ME TOO!) Perhaps you guys just had to be a little bit cleaner to place, but I feel like in other comps, this would've gotten first. (First by a long shot even)


Hopefully this post makes people think a little bit. I have nothing against clean well executed sets, I dance for UNC for god's sake, lol. I'm just saying the folk all-guys style really is underrated in the game, when it should be on a more equal footing imo. Respect it for what it is, don't just make comparisons of form and formations without equally fair and critical comparisons of creativity and difficulty etc. A lot of all-guys teams are being forced to go to a more modern style now just to clean up more and still have challenging sets. It's detrimental to the circuit and they still lose too (unless they go to a "modern comp") because it becomes less folk...

These are just a lot of my thoughts on the matter, I still want to give a big congrats to the placing teams. I know you all deserved to be in the top three, especially because I was incredibly happy with how the judges evaluated us (UNC), I have NO complaints there.
However, hopefully no one is offended in my saying KPGD was definitely on your level last night for the reasons stated prior. I think the judges just happened to have a very predetermined mindset of what to expect/look for at this comp. KPGD's style probably caught them off gaurd, and they didn't make the best evaluation of KPGD specifically given the situation imo.

Should a pretty clean but unique and challenging set beat a very clean although much simpler set? Well clearly there's no way to know without watching them.
But should the only such former set at a competition lose to 3 of the latter sets?? Highly unlikely imo.


tl;dr
You guys had the best risk to execution ratio last night and ya'll were on the podium for me. <3
I see what you're saying and I think its good food for thought, but at its logical conclusion, you're giving teams credit for what could have been rather than what was actually executed. Its an immense challenge to make an entertaining set that all of your dancers can execute. This was one of the biggest critiques loged at Empire when I was on it '06-'10, in that the choreo was less complicated than contemporary teams, but at the same time it still entertained.
 

squashes

Akash
Messages
31
Ashveer said:
I see what you're saying and I think its good food for thought, but at its logical conclusion, you're giving teams credit for what could have been rather than what was actually executed. Its an immense challenge to make an entertaining set that all of your dancers can execute. This was one of the biggest critiques loged at Empire when I was on it '06-'10, in that the choreo was less complicated than contemporary teams, but at the same time it still entertained.

I think you may have misunderstood me, I don't think you should give people credit for what they didn't execute.
However, I think the risk (the potential) to execution ratio is key.
Certain styles of choreo are far riskier simply because they are inherently harder to clean up, either because they are more creative or more folk (or both).
Bhangra Empire is a good example of a team with very easy to clean choreo, which is obviously their goal. If they didn't all look exactly the same on stage, it would be an outstanding negative point because their choreo is not very attractive in and of itself. However, this is obviously their whole point, as the flawless execution becomes remarkable.
Their sets are incredibly entertaining because of their big time gimmicks and super clean formations and dancers.
They are the most universally entertaining team; it is a fact and their goal.
Bhangra Empire is one extreme that goes for risky gimmicks and safe choreo. A good example of the opposite in my opinion, however, is JJ.
JJ at Elite 8 was not nearly as clean as some of the other teams, however, they went for the safe gimmicks, and risky choreo extreme.
There is always the chance that your risks do not "hit" with the audience or judges of course, as has been the case with Bhangra Empire sometimes, and must have been the case with NYPD and JJ at Elite 8. This must have also been the case with KPGD at VPD. However, specifically in JJ's case they were still in the top three despite the lack of cleanliness/uniformity.
The judges clearly thought they had good execution so execution doesn't = uniformity imo.


GMU's video is up now (2nd place at VPD after judges deliberation, but actually 1st place by points initially if I'm not mistaken), perhaps I'm biased, but the execution of their set doesn't seem better than KPGD's execution of their set, albeit GMU definitely does have more uniform dancer skill. Hence why I feel there was a clear favor towards the safer choreo and uniform dancers at VPD this year. KPGD came 4th after 3 sets of the same general style. (safer set, uniform dancers.)
 

Ashveer

New Member
Messages
492
squashes said:
Ashveer said:
I see what you're saying and I think its good food for thought, but at its logical conclusion, you're giving teams credit for what could have been rather than what was actually executed. Its an immense challenge to make an entertaining set that all of your dancers can execute. This was one of the biggest critiques loged at Empire when I was on it '06-'10, in that the choreo was less complicated than contemporary teams, but at the same time it still entertained.

I think you may have misunderstood me, I don't think you should give people credit for what they didn't execute.
I think the risk(potential) to execution ratio is key though. Certain styles of choreo are far riskier simply because they are inherently harder to clean up.
It's not all about risky gimmicks, but risky choreo in terms of ease-of-cleanliness.
Hm, not quite understanding you then. You want teams to get some sort of credit from a judges perspective for having a risky set? It seems to be an issue when its not executed well; you're not arguing about X team that had not-risky choreo but was clean and Y team that had risky choreo and was clean and placed lower.

"This set could win anywhere imo when executed to it's max."
"but why constantly punish a team for having a few weak dancers in a really challenging set"

The inverse is "why punish teams for creating sets that their dancers can actually execute"? I suppose its an issue of balance.

I don't pay much attention to judging rubrics but "cleanliness" seems to be an established criteria for judging rather than "risk" or "complexity" of choreography.

Also just watched bits and pieces of the set again. I see less of an experienced dancer issue or inordinately complex choreo and more of a "get everyone to dance the same" issue. That's on the team for not putting enough time into practice, not the judges for not recognizing complexity/entertainment/risk.
 

squashes

Akash
Messages
31
Ashveer said:
Hm, not quite understanding you then. You want teams to get some sort of credit from a judges perspective for having a risky set? It seems to be an issue when its not executed well; you're not arguing about X team that had not-risky choreo but was clean and Y team that had risky choreo and was clean and placed lower.

"This set could win anywhere imo when executed to it's max."
"but why constantly punish a team for having a few weak dancers in a really challenging set"

The inverse is "why punish teams for creating sets that their dancers can actually execute"? I suppose its an issue of balance.

I don't pay much attention to judging rubrics but "cleanliness" seems to be an established criteria for judging rather than "risk" or "complexity" of choreography.

Also just watched bits and pieces of the set again. I see less of an experienced dancer issue or inordinately complex choreo and more of a "get everyone to dance the same" issue. That's on the team for not putting enough time into practice, not the judges for not recognizing complexity/entertainment/risk.

Sorry was mid edit as you posted, didn't mean to undercut you, but you may want to read it.


I'm not saying anyone should be punished for having the clean well executed set. (As you said, balance is the key)
As I said, I've danced on teams whose style that is and we've done well with it, but I think at VPD it was very much favored is all.
I'm simply giving an explanation/consolation as to why the judges may not have placed KPGD that night.


In the end, cleanliness is much easier to judge. I think it takes a very edgy judge to be able to look beyond that imo.
Bhangra Empire is the most universally liked bhangra team, because they are the cleanest and have the biggest gimmicks. The easiest things to judge, even by people who don't know bhangra. However, by people who are familiar with the circuit, Bhangra Empire is not many people's favorite, despite being well respected. Do you understand me now?
I feel like the judges didn't appreciate all there was to appreciate bhangra-wise at this bhangra competition, that's all.


Please don't take my quotes out of context.
I also said "[SIZE=x-small]This set could win anywhere imo when executed to it's max. I guess my only advice is that the dancer skill has to be more equal, but I wish that wasn't the number one priority of so many judges."[/SIZE]


There are many more examples of how you pulled certain attitudes out of my words that I was not reflecting. I think you illogically read my post with a prejudice towards me being some kind of crybaby for my bros.


Please read my original post again fully. I feel like it was respectful to all styles, and was very neutral. I was simply calling to attention a judging bias towards one style at this competition. I'm not saying the judges were wrong. They were the judges.
I'm not saying it's a big deal nor am I saying that KPGD was robbed, simply that they should improve their uniformity and have better luck next time at another competition.


In my opinion, they should have placed, but I will continue to reiterate that it is my opinion only.
 

faizan

Just shut up and dance
Messages
1,736
if you make a risky set, it's just that, a risk. The risk is, a clean simple team will beat you. It has been happening at comps big and small forever. How many times has a cookie cutter collegiate team upset a big dog all-guys gimmicky team with a risky set.

Teams take these risks for three reasons:

1. Risky teams get all the chicks.
2. It's just more fun.
3. If you are risky and you win, it's sheer and utter glory.

At the end of the day, if you want to win, especially at a folk/cleanliness focused comp like VPD, Burgh, etc. Don't fuck around, just have a safe set. Otherwise, you have a small chance of winning, or even placing higher than 3rd.
 

Psant

UNC Bhangra Elite Alum, Brandeis Bhangra
Messages
434
faizan said:
if you make a risky set, it's just that, a risk. The risk is, a clean simple team will beat you. It has been happening at comps big and small forever. How many times has a cookie cutter collegiate team upset a big dog all-guys gimmicky team with a risky set.

Teams take these risks for three reasons:

1. Risky teams get all the chicks.
2. It's just more fun.
3. If you are risky and you win, it's sheer and utter glory.

At the end of the day, if you want to win, especially at a folk/cleanliness focused comp like VPD, Burgh, etc. Don't fuck around, just have a safe set. Otherwise, you have a small chance of winning, or even placing higher than 3rd.

But when have you seriously seen an all-guys team at an independent competition win with a 'safe' set?
 

faizan

Just shut up and dance
Messages
1,736
i agree, risky guys teams have to go above and beyond to win first at an independent comp (other than elite 8, idols to name a few. I fear the bar is set very high by some legendary performances, and everyone expects 7 minutes of fire in order for the set to win first.

Also, I have seen all guys teams win with a safe set. But, even there, a safe set for an all guys team is either:

1. way riskier than a all-folk and/or collegiate safe set
2. or a simple live set (which is risky in and of itself)
 

He Hate Me

New Member
Messages
26
Man this was a weak performance ... straight up.


I don't know why everyone thinks every performance is place worthy these days...
 
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