Mixes are not intellecual property

[Omer81]

to be honest i dont think hearing my mix being used by another group for something non competitive, etc, would get my blood boiling, but what do people think about others using your ideas in a mix. For example, as Imran said, if you give out 5 songs to 100 people, youre gonna get 100 mixes back. But what gets my blood boiling is when someone does the same thing as you, particularly after you have posted it. Not trying to thread jack or divert the direction, but i was curious to see if its only me. I'm not saying using the same dhol sample or even building off a style. But if tomorrow I make a mix using lil wayne's fireman and putt jattan de shokeen, i think pavan or all of sher should have an issue with this... different issue but related...

I agree...I dont think its that big of a deal if its non-competitive and a group just having fun. Sure it would be nice if they asked or cited credit or whatever, but if not, its not the end of the world. More than getting angry, I usually take it as a compliment because as they say, imitation is the biggest form of flattery.

But at the end of the day, the mix is only part of the final product. The more important part is what you do with it choreo wise or how you fit it into your routine. Recently I saw a newer team use a part of one of our older mixes in a competition. Choreo wise they did something completely different with it. Would it be better if they would have taken the time to cut the song, add a different transition to it, different effects, etc? Probably, but who knows, maybe they didnt have time or it was a last minute thing, or didnt have the knowledge or resources to do it. Is it okay that they did it? Probably not, but definitely not the end of the world.

As for your second point of taking 'ideas' from mixes, the same can be said about choreo and routines. It takes time to come up with something different and unique and I can definitely understand if people get angry if they see their ideas or concepts in other teams routines or mixes and it happens a lot. From what I've seen, the problem comes in when that SECOND team does it. Take for example, SGPD's domino squats when they first came out with it. It was unique, different, and definitely a crowd pleaser. The first team that used something like that in their routine after them, got a lot of heat for it. But look at routines today. 90 percent of them have some sort of domino squat (modified or not) in their routines because the mentality is, oh, another team did it, so everybodys doing it, so its okay. Theres really no solution for it, except to just take it as a huge compliment when multiple teams take ideas from your mixes or routines. It means uve definitely influenced the scene.

 

[Manna]

i love releasing our mixes lets people enjoy them and relive it whenver they want...

 

[Saab]

Great thread Swi.

On that note I want to continue talking about what Omer stated. To briefly preface some of the earlier threads, teams dancing at non-competition venues tend to not have the same resources that almost 95% of the people here have when it comes to bhangra mixes/music. They probably look for a good mix, but also a mix from a dance they liked(yeah they probably used something they liked). I know a lot of hard work goes to mixes(as ive failed miserably at making them) but I also know that the whole point for making mixes is that people get the opportunity to listen to it as an audience, to hear your work. For all you puffed up kids, take a needle to your ego balloons and realize that they cant ever take that mix away from you, its always going to be your mix. Hell, I bet most times people do the dance and listen to that mix, they probably ask where you got it(Hey, you get more exposure). They should ask, sure, but Bhangra, to my knowledge, wasnt originally a competitive dance, but something that people did for fun and for culture, which is what these people seem to be doing.

Secondly, Omer brought up a really good point. People who use other teams mixes are partially fulfilling the manifest destiny of most teams, to be great. I always thought that great teams, people, etc always were great because they inspired people to mimicry or to something of a similar fame. Imitation is the best form of flattery. Sher, part of the reason I love sher foundation so much is because they seem to be such a peoples team in the way they let out their mixes, dance, and generally enjoy themselves. If this becomes and issue to you, you should step back and realize its not just about your, your team, or even the next competition. Think about the fans and others.

Would you really rip a team that performed at a cancer benefit with your mix?

People taking your mix could do a lot of good(for you and others) and not much bad.


Thanks for listening,
~Ram

 

[Karandeep]

i love releasing our mixes lets people enjoy them and relive it whenver they want...

Could you release your desifest mix? That was hype

 

[HarmanToor]

Im guessing this thread was created from the NYPD stolen mix thread I JUST read.. I made the mix, and I am cool with it. However they should ask for permission or ATLEAST give credit, especially since the mix was never posted on this website for public use and I did ONLY make the mix exclusively for people who attended the competition(50 bucks) and went out of their way, out of their daily schedules to show up and watch us dance. I get countless pm's on the tbyf mix, but its just not going to happen. Not to say that I dont share with the BTF community, I post uncommon dhol samples when I know most if not all dj's wont do it. I posted 2 pre-release tracks already on this site aswell. I am not trying to be a dick here about the mixes, but I think that the people who paid for tickets should feel somewhat extra special.

On a side note, there was a comment posted by you Swi on that thread in which you stated that NYPD is not even close to LBC in terms of hype n what not, you cannot say stuff like that. They are two completely different styles of bhangra, we dont worry as much about crowd hype.. thats the least of our cares. In my opinion, most American comps give it to you easy and Toronto comps are ALOT harder in terms of judging. If you watch LBC's latest video, we can't do stuff like that, we can't bring eazy-e on the stage on a chromed out bicycle, we cant do the drama skits that you guys can do(I think its fun) but we just cant. We would never ever be invited to a local comp ever again, up here its all about the raw bhangra. The only hype that we can provide is in our remixes and our dancing, but at the same time we have guidelines to follow for those aswell.

 

[yraparla]

I post uncommon dhol samples when I know most if not all dj's wont do it. I posted 2 pre-release tracks already on this site aswell. I am not trying to be a dick here about the mixes, but I think that the people who paid for tickets should feel somewhat extra special.

that's a very interesting point, hadn't seen it from perspective of someone who, in some sense, paid for the mix. I think it's an unusual situation though and the issue I brought up was towards the constant bitching about it month after month. So it's really about the paradigm rather than the specific instance. Pritpal's post is what sparked me to start the thread, but it's just one of many.

On a side note, there was a comment posted by you Swi on that thread in which you stated that NYPD is not even close to LBC in terms of hype n what not, you cannot say stuff like that.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I was referring to hype as a team, not the mix. That is, I was arguing LBC is a more well known team whose Bruin 2007 mix has gotten jacked at least 8-9 times (that we have video of anyway). Seeing ONE group jack a mix and then blowing up over it seemed silly in that context. It wasn't in any way referring to the mixes, or performances, but rather the relative visibility of both teams.

 

[simran88]

the worst is if your at a comp and 2 of the teams that are competing against you use ur old mix and ur routine haha that is actually happened to UC DAVIS GIDDA TEAM i think in OH i didnt see them on btf going crazy.....

we were pretty upset =( but it was pretty funny at the same time cuz they walked in after they performed and they were like OMG WE DID SOOOO WELL and all of us were like WTF are u serious....idk you have to have some nerve to pull a stunt like that but what can u do....i agree with most ppl here...if little kids or older ppl are using the mix and choreo for a small performance, you should feel honored...but if someone is using it for competition means (like in our case) its pretty ridiculous.

 

[Dholaholic]

this wouldnt happend if u just went live like ur supposed to

 

[Meistro]

they should ask for permission or ATLEAST give credit, especially since the mix was never posted on this website for public use and I did ONLY make the mix exclusively for people who attended the competition(50 bucks) and went out of their way, out of their daily schedules to show up and watch us dance. I get countless pm's on the tbyf mix, but its just not going to happen.

Hey harman, I've got a few questions for you! Did you ask the artists for permission before you modified, remixed and used their songs in your mix? Did you "ATLEAST give credit" to them after you used them? Maybe you shoulda put "thank you so and so" in your mix at the end? You probably didn't do any of these things right? You know, whats REALLY funny is that even artists sometimes have the song writer's names in their songs, usually towards the end. Harman, maybe you should think of doing that next time, since you want to make a huge deal about bs like asking permission and giving credit since your un-released, EXCLUSIVE mix leaked out and some team used it. Maybe you shouldn't "exclusively" give it to special people anymore who took time out of their daily lives to come watch you. You sound very pompous telling us about how many Pm's you're getting about your mix and how "its just not going to happen". Quit being such a tease, because Im sure your mix isn't as sick as you're making it out to be.

So heres my point: Everyone knows who the "jacked mix" belongs to just like mostly everyone knows the artists in your mix. To me, thats enough credit. if SHER, DRP, VCU, etc can release their mixes, as I've said before, there is no reason why no other team cannot. End of story.

 

[mafzal]

I am not trying to be a dick here about the mixes, but I think that the people who paid for tickets should feel somewhat extra special.

I don't understand that logic

1- You're not releasing it to people who paid for tickets and/or were there competing and watched it live anyway
2- 90% of the people asking you and NYPD for the mix would have gladly paid for tickets but they probably lived 200 or 300 miles away.......
3- The TBYF video is on youtube anyway so we've all heard it, why can't we have the mp3 to bump in cars and stuff?



Only time I can understand a team not posting a mix or atleast sharing with people who want to listen is if the team is going to use the mix or significant portions of it again for competition.

 

[HarmanToor]

they should ask for permission or ATLEAST give credit, especially since the mix was never posted on this website for public use and I did ONLY make the mix exclusively for people who attended the competition(50 bucks) and went out of their way, out of their daily schedules to show up and watch us dance. I get countless pm's on the tbyf mix, but its just not going to happen.

Hey harman, I've got a few questions for you! Did you ask the artists for permission before you modified, remixed and used their songs in your mix? Did you "ATLEAST give credit" to them after you used them? Maybe you shoulda put "thank you so and so" in your mix at the end? You probably didn't do any of these things right? You know, whats REALLY funny is that even artists sometimes have the song writer's names in their songs, usually towards the end. Harman, maybe you should think of doing that next time, since you want to make a huge deal about bs like asking permission and giving credit since your un-released, EXCLUSIVE mix leaked out and some team used it. Maybe you shouldn't "exclusively" give it to special people anymore who took time out of their daily lives to come watch you. You sound very pompous telling us about how many Pm's you're getting about your mix and how "its just not going to happen". Quit being such a tease, because Im sure your mix isn't as sick as you're making it out to be.

So heres my point: Everyone knows who the "jacked mix" belongs to just like mostly everyone knows the artists in your mix. To me, thats enough credit. if SHER, DRP, VCU, etc can release their mixes, as I've said before, there is no reason why no other team cannot. End of story.

no offense, this is all a bunch of useless blabber. No I do not have to ask nor will I ever ask the artist who created the tracks permission, they get paid to do this.. I do it for free and only for 1 purpose. I spent hours creating this track. Its MY track, dont forget that and that I am the ONLY ONE who has the right to share my work and who I want to share it with. I share some stuff on this forum, selectively, just because I choose not to share cetain mixes doesnt mean im acting cocky or anything, I just dont want to share it.. its so simple that Im SURPRISED that theres an argument at all. And I didnt say it was the best remix, I didnt say anything like that. Maybe I am not 100% comfortable with it? maybe I dont think its worthy enough for your cars? but no, you dont think like that.. you just assume im being a cocky prick.

And if you read the line before the ones you quoted, I cleary stated that I was cool with the other team using our mix. It was a good performance. But if I asked you for any work of yours and you kindly replied no thanks I do not want to share it.. how can you NOT respect that? Instead you jump to conclusions and say im being very pompous and a "tease". Way to represent BTF.

 

[kinnell]

I post uncommon dhol samples when I know most if not all dj's wont do it. I posted 2 pre-release tracks already on this site aswell. I am not trying to be a dick here about the mixes, but I think that the people who paid for tickets should feel somewhat extra special.

that's a very interesting point, hadn't seen it from perspective of someone who, in some sense, paid for the mix. I think it's an unusual situation though and the issue I brought up was towards the constant bitching about it month after month. So it's really about the paradigm rather than the specific instance. Pritpal's post is what sparked me to start the thread, but it's just one of many.

On a side note, there was a comment posted by you Swi on that thread in which you stated that NYPD is not even close to LBC in terms of hype n what not, you cannot say stuff like that.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I was referring to hype as a team, not the mix. That is, I was arguing LBC is a more well known team whose Bruin 2007 mix has gotten jacked at least 8-9 times (that we have video of anyway). Seeing ONE group jack a mix and then blowing up over it seemed silly in that context. It wasn't in any way referring to the mixes, or performances, but rather the relative visibility of both teams.

Well Swi, just because LBC doesn't get visibly pissed that people jack their mix and choreo doesn't mean other teams aren't allowed to or shouldn't. HELL, LBC is popular enough that eventually someone might figure out that the performance they watched was stolen from LBC. A lot of the newer teams or lesser known teams may not have that advantage and their choreo or mix may never be correctly attributed to those who put in the work.

It may be silly, but its up to that team how they want to react. Sure, if they want to go ape-shit (provided they do not break BTF rules), let them - it really does sucks.

My advice: Post your mix on BTF. Get as many people to listen to it. That's the advantage that bigger teams have. You KNOW when you hear a Sher Mix or a DRP Mix because you've heard it so many times and thus you KNOW when its been jacked. The more people who have heard your mix, the less chance someone thinks they can get away with jacking it.

 

[yraparla]

Well Swi, just because LBC doesn't get visibly pissed that people jack their mix and choreo doesn't mean other teams aren't allowed to or shouldn't. HELL, LBC is popular enough that eventually someone might figure out that the performance they watched was stolen from LBC. A lot of the newer teams or lesser known teams may not have that advantage and their choreo or mix may never be correctly attributed to those who put in the work.

It may be silly, but its up to that team how they want to react. Sure, if they want to go ape-shit (provided they do not break BTF rules), let them - it really does sucks.

My advice: Post your mix on BTF. Get as many people to listen to it. That's the advantage that bigger teams have. You KNOW when you hear a Sher Mix or a DRP Mix because you've heard it so many times and thus you KNOW when its been jacked. The more people who have heard your mix, the less chance someone thinks they can get away with jacking it.

I agree completely, every team has the right to get angry. I guess what I was going at is that the issue is larger than any team, and LBC was an extended example of how, initially, we were like wtf and eventually made a joke out of it because regardless of what any team does no one can take the LBC performance away from them.

That's how I feel about groups (not teams) copying from stuff they find online. No one can take a performance away from you, and it's impossible for the copied performance to be as good. I just think in the open source era you're liable for a lot more headaches if you care that deeply...better to accept that there is your laptop, the cd you hand to an organizer, and the rest of the world.

edit: on a sidenote, I hope no one takes personally what's being said on here. this is not directed to NYPD (or more directly to HarmanT) the point of the thread was just to give us a chance before the season starts to talk about how we feel. Omer brought up great points that sometimes stuff become standard even though we give a lot of heat to the first 'copycat'. @Omer, I think part of it is how creatively you modify the choreo. I think being 'inspired' by steps is ok if you change the context of the choreo. Domino jumps can be modfied by the formation used or timing involved. I'm not as sure how you use leprechaun kicks without straight copying for example

 

[Manjot]

this wouldnt happend if u just went live like ur supposed to

hahahha

 

[Pooja]

this wouldnt happend if u just went live like ur supposed to

folk.

 

[sulmoney]

there is no obligation on any team to share their mix with anybody that they do not want to. just because the team performs to it in front of hundreds or thousands of people, and then it most likely ends up on youtube or whatever does not give everyone the right to have that mix. we have been spoiled by btf and the ability to upload our mixes here, that now it has become almost an expectation. its something ive noticed and been quietly upset about since the advent of btf: the sense of entitlement that some people have. i have been making mixes for nearly a decade now (i need to retire asap), and have always been one to share my mixes with people, but at the same time, i totally understand when people do not want to do the same. i have firsthand experienced when someone jacked part of my mix for an exhibition team for the same competition we were competing in (i wont go into the details here), and ended it with a simple, just ask and i would have said yes. making mixes, and especially the ones we hear nowadays, takes a lot of hard work and time, and for many mixes, they do become an entirely different monster from what they started out as.

for example, lets use the klasikhz album. did klasikhz contact every artist/label that they sampled in their album? i highly doubt it. yet, they not only mixed and put together an album, they then charged $10 for you to download it. so, they took other peoples work, added their touches to it, and charged us for it. yet, none of us cried when we paid for it because we justified it by saying, "oh they changed the original songs, and made a whole new entity. ill gladly pay the $10 to enjoy it." why cant we use the same parallel when discussing team mixes? every single person who is on here saying that you are entitled to teams mixes, go ask klasikhz for your money back because you are entitled to that as well.

the whole concept of intellectual property is very interesting and has a lot of gray area. the first thing i thought about while keeping tabs on this thread was the associated press suing shepard fairey over the now iconic obama hope image. you can read more about it here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/04/ap-accuses-shepard-fairey_n_164045.html). read that, and then come back to this thread.

in short, harman and everyone else who has had a mix jacked, you have every right to be angry about what happened. for those that dont want to share their mixes, thats perfectly fine and more power to you. for everyone else, get off your high horses and be thankful for what you do get.

 

[yraparla]

but sulman, what happens when you do share it?

 

[ban3rg]

this wouldnt happend if u just went live like ur supposed to

hahhahahahahaha I WISH we all had access to decent singers mannnn...but ur right last time I checked no one cares about others using their boliyan haha..would simplify everything

 

[Meistro]

this wouldnt happend if u just went live like ur supposed to

hahahha

LOL yea it would, then you would just rip the audio like JATT and then perform it haha. JKKKK, it had to be said. JATT I lowe you.

 

[[Sher] Imran]

In essence, isn't posting your mix a form of "publication?" Any book, news article, etc that is made accessible to the public by the author is there for everyone's enjoyment. However within that category of "everyone," i would say there are two circles: one being the general population, and the second being the more "educated" group. By educated I mean the people that are in the industry and know how it works. General population would be considered everyone else. If I was the author of a 10 page article in a science journal, I would have an expectation that my some of my stuff would be jacked/plagarized by the general population (college/HS kids doing their papers at the last second, people making minor presentations in science class, etc). However, I would be extremely disappointed if I found out that my colleagues or others in the educated group (fellow scientists/doctors/etc) ripped my stuff, because they should be doing their own work. I would have a higher expectation of their behavior in regards to publications. Wouldn't the same apply here?
I think that sharing/posting stuff comes with an inherent understanding that there is a lot of hardwork that went into that video/mix/article/etc. I would imagine that that understanding would be especially prevalent among people in the same industry, aka BTFers/fellow dancers