Message to the moderators: You guys really need to stop adding your two cents in when you moderate. First it was Nikhil who said I was trying to force my opinions on to others. Now, Sulman is saying that Vick demanded other people abide by his percieved notion of a lifestyle. I found no such thing. Sure Vick's comments may have been out of line, but why dont you tell people why it was not acceptable and then move on. If your moderating, be moderate and dont add your opinion to your moderation. If you want to, then post under your account name. Its not fair that people must read your comments and your opinion on peoples thoughts when we read what they have to say.
Harman and Mesitro,
Personally, Homosexuality is something that is natural and happens in life. The basic foundation in sikhi is not to judge other people's rightness and wrongness. If we sit there and entertain this conversation of whether homosexuality is acceptable in sikhi or not, the basic conversation is something that goes against the basic tenents. In sikhi, the reason why we dont force our view on people, why we dont convert, is because we believe judgment of other peoples lifestyle's is inherently wrong. Whether it be religion, sexual preference etc...
But we can talk about sikhi and gay marriage, the orginal topic. Sikhi's marriage rituals is something that is not very suitable to same sex marriages. If two men or two women wanted to get married, there are some things that they will have to change under sikhi practices, that would bring into question the religious validity of the marriage. The passing of the kirpan and paisa, milni, barat etc... these are all practices that need a distinct female and male role, so there is that question that needs to be answered.
Harman I dont know where you stand on the meat eating issue (I forgot) but I find it remarkable that people dont use your approach when it comes to meat eating. You said there is no explicit mention of gay marriage or homosexual relations in Shri guru Granth sahib ji, which is true, but again people use that as an excuse of why to eat meat. Because even though the shabads, lifestyles of the guru's and other non guru granth sahib ji literature from the guru's promote a vegetarian lifestyle, people think just because it is not explicitly said in guru ji that meat eating is bad, people do it. I think you are right, we must look at the essence of sikhi to see whether it is acceptable or not.
The guru granth sahib ji is not an instruction booklet, this is the main thing that people must realize. It is not something that says DO this, and DONT DO THIS. If your looking for that, hit up the 10 commandments, sikhi is not for you. Sikhi is a lifestyle... Now can homosexuality be part of this lifestyle?
There was an interesting article that I read A LONG TIME ago and sexuality and religion. It was written by an indian who claimed that all religions of india had the surroundings of sexuality, but it is remarkable how none of the religions (except for hinduism and the sutra which taken out of context a lot) go into sexuality a lot. So many sikh "leaders" have come out against homosexuality and the acceptablity of it in Sikhi. That may influence people, it doesnt with me though...
I think Meistro when you say that sikhi looks down upon the caste system, so should this be transferrable towards sexual orientation, you may bring up a good point. There is no right and wrong with this answer, just because if the Guru's are supposed to be our guides in life, what happens when there is no guidence on this issue? If you look at the essence of sikhi, it promotes equality of all types, but the practices of sikhi may not practice equality. Some would argue that if Guru ji's were for the marriage of same sexes, why would there be distinctly separate practices in marriage for men and women? Although sikhi marriage was fully enstilled by guru gobind singh ji, there is evidence that it happen well before then...
Furthermore if you look at the practices of a "marriage" in some sikhi lit, you might come to the conclusions that again, same sex marriage was not thought of. The practices of a man and woman in everyday life in accordance to each other. The bottom line is that, if we were to assume that our guru's has some level of tolerance towards same sex marriages, why wouldnt they take this into account when coming up with marriage for example.
I am all for same sex relations, and I am not going to go into it for the sake of time. There is nothing wrong with it, breaking the stigma is a challenge that the world will face for a long time. When talking about religion specfically sikhi, we must think about the lifestyle that is sikhi. The lifestyle enacted by our gurus and some of rituals would show proof that same sex relations were never taken into account. Does that make it inherently right or wrong? Thats the question.
