• Bhangra discussion is still going strong. Join us in our Facebook group!

    New user registration has been closed (as it was entirely spam). We encourage you to post in our Facebook group, even if it's a followup to an existing thread. BTF will continue to be archived and hosted here - Saleem

Purity of Bhangra Dancing

sonehdataweet

New Member
Messages
773
Wow I can't believe people are so ignorant! Anyone can do Bhangra there ain't no fine print no where stating that BHANGRA IS ONLY FOR PUNJABI Sikh's and if you find it please do show me! On the other note have a good day!
 

Nikhil

New Member
Messages
881
Honestly, I see exactly what dodobird is saying. So I have 2 questions to fuel the fire:

1), BTFers, If religion has nothing to do with this, why does the opening sher often times include "Jo Bole So Nihaal, Saat Sri Akaal"?

2) dodobird, with your lucid statements and respectable arguments, what do you wish/plan for base on what you have stated? Do you intend to return things to norm according to standards? Do you wish for something to be done that is similar to the "Take Back the Yoga" Campaign originating from Minneapolis?
 

Nikhil

New Member
Messages
881
The reason why I ask you this, dodobird (lol), is because these are conservative statements that seem to hint at an agenda you might have.
 

HarmanSingh

New Member
Messages
531
Nikhil said:
Honestly, I see exactly what dodobird is saying. So I have 2 questions to fuel the fire:

1), BTFers, If religion has nothing to do with this, why does the opening sher often times include "Jo Bole So Nihaal, Saat Sri Akaal"?
I don't think they should be included in shers, especially when it is followed up with boliyan or music about things that are very anti-Sikhi and when the jakara is in a venue where there is drinking and partying.

I would guess the reason it is so widely used is because many of these teams are made up of large numbers of Sikhs and they have a difficult time divorcing their religious beliefs from their cultural practices. But I think it is important that we keep Sikhi distinct from traditional Punjabi practices (which is extremely difficult) .
 

Gurbir23

New Member
Messages
546
HarmanSingh said:
Nikhil said:
Honestly, I see exactly what dodobird is saying. So I have 2 questions to fuel the fire:

1), BTFers, If religion has nothing to do with this, why does the opening sher often times include "Jo Bole So Nihaal, Saat Sri Akaal"?
I don't think they should be included in shers, especially when it is followed up with boliyan or music about things that are very anti-Sikhi and when the jakara is in a venue where there is drinking and partying.

I would guess the reason it is so widely used is because many of these teams are made up of large numbers of Sikhs and they have a difficult time divorcing their religious beliefs from their cultural practices. But I think it is important that we keep Sikhi distinct from traditional Punjabi practices (which is extremely difficult) .
+ 1
 

yraparla

SwizzeeMusic.com
Messages
2,072
dodobird said:
Why is this perceived of as a good thing? I repeat what I have stated earlier: the culture of a community is a relic of its past. It is a preservation of its past. If many years from now the extant generation do not realise that bhangra was once the showcase of Punjab, this is something to be lamented.
Thank you for your response. The quoted comment is actually a very interesting and important topic and I hope it guides the discussion.

The confusion has stemmed from this forum's understanding of traditional and modern, which appear to be distinct from how you have framed them. I would like to point out though, that you did say "I know what I'd want to see and what I wouldn't". The implication that you wouldn't want to see non-Sikh Punjabis dancing on stage is, I think, a fair inference.
 

HarmanSingh

New Member
Messages
531
dodobird said:
Dodobird vs the world, let's do this.


A lot of hypersensitive folk have extended my original views to an illogical end. I never said that non-Indians should never partake in bhangra nor did I say that only six foot plus Jatt Sikh men should frame the dance. Read my original post again; I am making a distinction between traditional and a modern form of bhangra - something I'm sure has been debated fiercely on these boards in the past.


I am willing to concede that in its most base form it was not solely under the ambit of Sikhs; someone put the matter quite elegantly when they stated it covered the Punjab region which necessarily entangled Sikhs - although my caveat is that I would say it has come to be closely regarded as associated with them.


My conception of traditional bhangra is an exhibition of culture. It is a dance which showcases culture, illustrating the livelihood of the folk music and the agrarian origins of Punjabis. The most pure exhibition as such will be displayed, in my opinion, when members of said culture are the ones who are dancing. Sure non-Punjabis can take part, sure they can don the costumes, sure they can do the moves - I have no problem with this whatsoever. I am entirely appreciative of the reach which bhangra has; this is something to be celebrated and I want to stamp out the entirely misguided views that I am ethnocentric or insular.


The point which I made starting from my very first post which has been utterly lost in all the responses made towards me is that when this occurs, it no longer reflects traditional bhangra. By all means it is a modern form or variant of bhangra - but it is not traditional - and as such, it is not a showcase of the culture exhibited by a niche community.


I know what almost everyone is going to say in response - bhangra is not static; bhangra evolves and a large part of its popularity in countries around the world today is tied to this evolution. I will not dispute this. However, evolution of culture is tantamount to erosion - Kinnell stated earlier his view that 20 years on from now youngsters will find it difficult to fathom that bhangra stemmed from a particular demographic root in India.


Why is this perceived of as a good thing? I repeat what I have stated earlier: the culture of a community is a relic of its past. It is a preservation of its past. If many years from now the extant generation do not realise that bhangra was once the showcase of Punjab, this is something to be lamented.


I stated earlier that antagonism is not my aim and that I have approached this whole debate with an open mind. Yet I know that someone is going to take this sentence and state I clearly do not have an open mind because I never want to see non-Punjabis doing bhangra. Can I pre-emptively and categorically deny this and just reinforce what I have said: Non-Punjabis can dance their soles bare - I will never and would never deny this. But, this is not traditional bhangra, it is a modern permutation, and as such and as time goes by, it less and less reflects Punjabi culture. Go ahead and jump on this pro-cultural-evolutionists, but see my previous paragraph.


I have not been personal in any of my remarks so please keep the ad hominem comments out of the equation.
If evolution of a culture is tantamount to erosion then there is no "true" culture. Evolution in thought, traditions, practices and beliefs are impossible to stop. There has never been a culture which stood stagnant for years let alone centuries.

Future generations will not forget what we call bhangra (which is an erosion/evolution of culture in itself...bhangra was just one folk dance but we now refer to it as all folk dances) is from Punjab. Nearly any sher and 70% of bolis and music make reference to Punjab or Punjabis in them. This is not something people forget, especially when the language of the music is Punjabi. It seems way over the top to suggest people will somehow forget the origins of Punjabi folk dances. I am not sure what year or what type of "bhangra" you are trying to preserve but I don’t think it exists. If you watch some old videos of jhumar or old videos of dhamaal they don’t really look like anything any team in Punjab is doing. Do you want to preserve folk dances from pre-partition or post-partition?
 

Govind

Member
Messages
364
what we think of as "traditional bhangra" only began in 1953...given that and what harman just posted (i.e. he's correct in saying that what you falsely believe you are trying to preserve no longer exists!!!), i really don't see how any of your arguments are relevant.
 

COMTONDAJATT

mint gumri
Messages
302
dodobird said:
I am willing to concede that in its most base form it was not solely under the ambit of Sikhs; someone put the matter quite elegantly when they stated it covered the Punjab region which necessarily entangled Sikhs - although my caveat is that I would say it has come to be closely regarded as associated with them.
ok yea thats true.

My conception of traditional bhangra is an exhibition of culture. It is a dance which showcases culture, illustrating the livelihood of the folk music and the agrarian origins of Punjabis. The most pure exhibition as such will be displayed, in my opinion, when members of said culture are the ones who are dancing. Sure non-Punjabis can take part, sure they can don the costumes, sure they can do the moves - I have no problem with this whatsoever. I am entirely appreciative of the reach which bhangra has; this is something to be celebrated and I want to stamp out the entirely misguided views that I am ethnocentric or insular.


The point which I made starting from my very first post which has been utterly lost in all the responses made towards me is that when this occurs, it no longer reflects traditional bhangra. By all means it is a modern form or variant of bhangra - but it is not traditional - and as such, it is not a showcase of the culture exhibited by a niche community.
ok thats understandable. traditional bhangra isnt really a real thing or concrete idea but i get what you are trying to say.

I know what almost everyone is going to say in response - bhangra is not static; bhangra evolves and a large part of its popularity in countries around the world today is tied to this evolution. I will not dispute this. However, evolution of culture is tantamount to erosion - Kinnell stated earlier his view that 20 years on from now youngsters will find it difficult to fathom that bhangra stemmed from a particular demographic root in India.
i dont really understand what you mean by saying evolution of culture is tantamount to erosion? could you explain this a little bit more?

Why is this perceived of as a good thing? I repeat what I have stated earlier: the culture of a community is a relic of its past. It is a preservation of its past. If many years from now the extant generation do not realise that bhangra was once the showcase of Punjab, this is something to be lamented.
i am sure that future generations of punjabi youths will understand that bhangra was a punjabi dance and what not. its kind of hard to separate the music, dance and costumes from the culture. there are plenty of more things to lament and be worried about in my opinion. the lack of preservation of classical music tradition, punjabi literature, poetry and other folk arts have essentially all been pushed in the background because bhangra has a monopoly of being the main identifier of punjabi culture.

in all honesty i dont want bhangra to be a showcase of punjabi culture. its really not that big of a deal or was to most of the history of punjab. kabaddi and other stuff was.
 

dodobird

New Member
Messages
12
[SIZE=small]Soniadewett - please read my last post, I think you've missed it or read it in another language.

Nikhil - I appreciate the comments and you raise an interesting point. I think there is a little more to my views being conservative though; we need to consider conservatism in a different light when it comes to forms of culture. I do think conservatism falls out of the fabric of current social trends. However, insofar as one's desire for one's culture to carry on and stand the test of time is concerned, while it may be conservative in the base sense of the word I don't think it should be seen in a negative light - it's tied to pride of one's origins and identifiability of roots.

That being said, I certainly don't have any agenda/ulterior motives beyond expressing my opinion. As to what I'd like to see done, you have me in a bit of a fix because I haven't given this thought. What I want is a connection of bhangra with Punjabi folkloric culture to remain steadfast in future generations. How to achieve this is problematic. I don't think it can be done to be quite honest - this thread's brought forth a huge number of "go with the flow"; "appreciate the change"; "enjoy the novelty of modern bhangra" type of comments. I'm expressing my opinion that traditional bhangra is a question of ethno-centricity given it harks back to culture. I'm not proposing any changes because I just haven't given this much thought, my initial view is that nothing can be done given the views I've seen on here. What I don't want to see - and I know this is controversial so please take my preemptive apologies - is non-Punjabis stating what bhangra is or what it should be because simply that is an aspect of a culture disparate to and not woven within them.

It truly seems to be a case of ride on with the waves or be left floundering in the ocean.
[/SIZE]
Swi - it is a fair inference. I should have qualified it and it should be read with my last post; my qualification would be along the lines of if I were to see a bhangra show with an expectation of it to be an exhibition of Punjabi culture, I would want to see Punjabis dancing it.

Saab - I am completely unfamiliar with edpreet hosono, could you fill me in?

Harman - yes, evolution of thought, traditions, practices and beliefs are impossible to stop. Yet when the practicing of a culture is exercised by members outside of this culture and the resulting creation is termed that culture itself - ie: calling it an exhibition of bhangra - you don't have an evolution, you have a fundamental erosion of culture because the constitutive basis of culture - traditions which we associate with a certain community - is gone. If the music changes - fine; that's evolution. If the dance moves change - fine; that's evolution. If, as envisaged by Kinnell, more and more and more non-Punjabis dance bhangra and - this is key - term it bhangra, then it is no longer an exhibition of Punjabi culture. It merges into a grey area between culture and a social phenomenon until the cultural root tying it back to historical Punjab all but vanishes.
This is the crux of what I am getting at - in order to have a true exhibition of culture, the members of said culture must be those who are professing it. Anything else and you have an imitation of art, but not an intrinsic showcasing of the art itself.


Govind - the relevance is quite basic, actually. Harman is arguing a different point to myself. He is looking at tradition on the basis of, for example, dhamaal and jhumaar looking nothing like the moves which teams nowdays showcase. I am looking at tradition more antecedently in the context of broader culture, noting that without an identifiable subset of a community to whom such 'moves' and features of dance are endemic, you don't have a culture. Therefore, irrespective of dance moves being different if you don't have persons representative of the group to which such customs are tied - Punjabis - what you are exhibiting is an imitation of a culture, but not the culture itself. My problem is that everyone seems to term the former as "bhangra".


Comtondajatt - all good bruv. I hope what I've written above elaborates on the evolution vs. erosion question you had, if not let me know. I do think, however, that bhangra does have somewhat of a more pertinent and lasting character to Punjab which is why I like to see it as a means of showcasing its culture.
 

Navi Sandhu

New Member
Messages
178
dodobird said:
My conception of traditional bhangra is an exhibition of culture. It is a dance which showcases culture, illustrating the livelihood of the folk music and the agrarian origins of Punjabis. The most pure exhibition as such will be displayed, in my opinion, when members of said culture are the ones who are dancing. Sure non-Punjabis can take part, sure they can don the costumes, sure they can do the moves - I have no problem with this whatsoever. I am entirely appreciative of the reach which bhangra has; this is something to be celebrated and I want to stamp out the entirely misguided views that I am ethnocentric or insular.


The point which I made starting from my very first post which has been utterly lost in all the responses made towards me is that when this occurs, it no longer reflects traditional bhangra. By all means it is a modern form or variant of bhangra - but it is not traditional - and as such, it is not a showcase of the culture exhibited by a niche community.

Dodbird. I appreciate this argument and this specifically sparked me to think differently about your initial misconstrued comments.

Any folk dance, form of cooking, etc is only considered a pure and authentic display of culture when it is done by the members of the originating community. Of course a French cook can prepare Italian food and it would be absolutely amazing, but even an Italian would consider food prepared by an Italian chef with a restaurant based in Italy to be most authentic.

Most of us BTFers watch live India teams and awe at the performances. Speaking from strictly a performance perspective (NOT the perspective of Bhangra as an art form) sometimes the choreography is relatively simple compared to what Canadan and North American teams create, the routines are not as the height of cleanliness & the energy can be sub par for certain parts of the routine. Yet we still awe at these performances. At most, those who don't find these performances to be enlightening will just not watch them at all and will not comment.

But WHY do we still consider these India routines & style of execution to be the basis of what we do here? Because it is. We strive to dance like them & we strive to emulate their grace.


If the point we are arguing is that Bhangra is a display & enrichment of culture, then Bhangra as an authentic display of culture is that which is performed by the members of the community.


If I were a go to a West African dance recital, I would consider the purest display of their dance form, which is representative of their culture, to be done by West Africans themselves; not Indians, not Russians; not Koreans. The same applies for folk dances, the art of cooking, weaving rugs, singing, etc.


This is NOT to say that everyone can't participate in Bhangra. It's beautiful and amazing that we all are participating in this dance form & sharing of culture. I don't think Dodbird's argument attacks this point.
 

Mojo

WE GO HARD.
Messages
83
Govind said:
what we think of as "traditional bhangra" only began in 1953...given that and what harman just posted (i.e. he's correct in saying that what you falsely believe you are trying to preserve no longer exists!!!), i really don't see how any of your arguments are relevant.

Amen to that. +1
I think this discussion needs to be over because obviously everyone is arguing about something different (traditional vs. modern, Sikh vs. non-Sikh Punjabi, Punjabi vs. non-Punjabi, etc.)


It is what it is. Some white people do bhangra. Honestly, you either embrace it or you don't. Either way, it's not going to change anything. If you truly love bhangra, you won't care what anyone has to say about you doing it, whether you're brown, white, or purple.
 

Pooja

I put the double o in cool.
Messages
932
Mojo said:
If you truly love bhangra, you won't care what anyone has to say about you doing it, whether you're brown, white, or purple.
whoa, you know people that are purple?!
 

dodobird

New Member
Messages
12
Mojo said:
Amen to that. +1
I think this discussion needs to be over because obviously everyone is arguing about something different (traditional vs. modern, Sikh vs. non-Sikh Punjabi, Punjabi vs. non-Punjabi, etc.)

It is what it is. Some white people do bhangra. Honestly, you either embrace it or you don't. Either way, it's not going to change anything. If you truly love bhangra, you won't care what anyone has to say about you doing it, whether you're brown, white, or purple.

No, everybody is not arguing about something different. This has been about Punjabi culture, those three categories you have separated out are irrevocably linked to this. For the record, I conceded the Sikh/Non-Sikh point to deal with this on a broader basis.


Please read my prior post, your neat conclusion tells me that either you have not understood it or I have been unclear. My views have nothing negative whatsoever to say about non-Punjabi's embracing bhangra. I've stated it pretty clearly several times - I think it is excellent and a celebration of the reach of bhangra. This is not a question of embracing culture. It is a question of exhibiting culture.


Navi Sandhu - elegant post which resonates with what I have been trying to get across, much appreciated.
 

ghatora

New Member
Messages
53
So you say that Punjabi's should be the ones doing bhangra because they preserve the culture...
but answer me this... how many punjabi youth in NA truly understand their own culture?
 

Don

New Member
Messages
529
ghatora said:
So you say that Punjabi's should be the ones doing bhangra because they preserve the culture...
but answer me this... how many punjabi youth in NA truly understand their own culture?

Either you don't know how to read or you just enjoy beating dead horses. HE NEVER SAID ONLY PUNJABIS SHOULD SO BHANGRA. Please refer to his last 3 posts on this thread.
 

bagmi

challenge accepted!
Messages
58
dodobird- I see your points, but I think you may be typing too much and contradicting points here and there.

For instance, you mentioned that you do not mind non-Punjabis dancing bhangra, but then you say...
" my qualification would be along the lines of if I were to see a bhangra show with an expectation of it to be an exhibition of Punjabi culture, I would want to see Punjabis dancing it."

I think this may be where many of us find a problem. Is not nearly every bhangra competition/show an exhibition of Punjabi culture? Take BDM for example, where most of the audience was caucasian. They came expecting to see a display of Punjabi culture. Would you say that we deprived them of this by not having all Punjabi dancers? If you think of it that way, the above comment sounds like you cannot appreciate a non-Punjabi on stage, which is apparently not the case.


ALSO

You refer to the erosion of culture. Culture is not something set in stone. You mention the change in music as evolution, as well as the change in steps/moves. Why not the change in people? Back in the day, there was bhangra in it's purest sense. I would challenge that many Punjabis cannot say they played part in this pure bhangra. So I think it's safe to say that the "pure bhangra" we're looking for is now fossilized in documentaries and youtube videos from a long time ago. Nowadays, in North America,at least, there is no hope to see pure bhangra nor is there a venue for it. We appreciate culture in a museum but we participate and learn from culture that can relate to us and/or perform in front of us.

I'm going to relate a similar example. What about a Kuchipudi dancer that isn't from Andhra? Or Bharatnatyam dancer no from Tamil Nadu? The purest forms of those dances are in the statues of temples in South India, but the exponents of the dance today follow the teachings of the dance and as long as somebody understands what the lyrics are saying and represents the technique and lyricism well, I would say that they are showing a piece of South Indian culture.

Think about it. You have an all Punjabi Sikh male team and then a co-ed multiracial team doing the same routine at the same level. They are both displays of the EXACT same art form, at the same caliber. Are you going to say that the former team is the true respresentation of Punjabi culture? If we were on display at a museum, of course they are, but in movement, everything becomes the same.

An art form is an art form. You can say that the some of the individual dancers are more accurate representations of Punjabi culture than others, but saying that the actual dance becomes less of a representation of bhangra is another thing.


So what I'm saying is- you are making a fair point, but one that is irrelevant in the context of our community. I think everybody knows that we are not doing bhangra in the purest sense, but I contest that this is not due to the ethnicities of dancers today, but moreso the fact that we are not in Punjab circa 1950
 
Top