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Question about Mecca

Somi

Hookah is NOT harmful!
Messages
553
Quick question about Mecca... I witnessed a conversation one day. It was in a class in undergrad, two guys that never met. One was a hindu guy, and a muslims guy. I merely witnessed it. The muslim guy said to the hindu that in islam they dont believe in idol worship. THe hindu guy replied with, well you pray to that black stone in Mecca, and thats the place you point to when you pray, how is that no idol worship. THe muslim guy didnt respond. Then as an obvious sikh, the muslim guy says to me, yeah your an idol worshipper too, because we pray to a "booK". He didnt say it in a disrespectful tone or else I would be writing this from my jail cell, but I was just interested in what Muslims have to say about that...
I read this on a site-
"many people are confused, that as Muslims, yes, we do face the Kaba to pray. In every corner of the world we do so. But it is not because the Kaba itself has any value or worth that make it need to be faced other than a sign of unity.
In short, Muslims do not worship the Kaba."



but the muslim guy...honestly, i really would not know what to say. seems like he has little knowledge and instead came back at you. Sorry you had to hear that.
 

Somi

Hookah is NOT harmful!
Messages
553
Abhi- i will try to answer you question

I am not wikipedia fan but I got this from there
According to the Qur'an, the Kaaba was built by Ibrahim (Abraham) and his son Ismāʿīl (Ishmael).[25] Islamic traditions assert that the Kaaba "reflects" a house in heaven called al-Baytu l-Maʿmur

also found this http://www.ezsoftech.com/hajj/hajj_article1.asp -
Prophet Abraham (p.b.u.h.) built this House for devout worship to the only God. But within his lifetime people disobeyed his orders and began to put idols inside the Kaaba.
God does not live there; He is everywhere.
 

JotBrar

"The khunda is mightier than the sword" - Jot Brar
Messages
118
how did they get a picture when your supposed to worship the sacred stone
 

Ashqe

Member
Messages
610
Concerning the picture, I think in either the article that was posted about the Kaaba or from the Wikipedia article, the inside of the Kaaba is cleaned annually or something like that with holy water-type stuff and there are mostly priest-type people inside cleaning the Kaaba.
 

Somi

Hookah is NOT harmful!
Messages
553
Jot - we do not worship the stone
we pray towards the Ka'ba and the stone is placed on one side of the Ka'ba
(let me if i made sense)

the pic...I know they are strict in bring in camera (not sure if that is only during Hajj though)
but the pics inside...they must have gotten permission to get them...I know that tv stations have camera hooked around Masjid Al-Haram...we seen it live..like Hajj, Prayers, Eid prayers, Taravee, even when the Ka'ba inside is being cleaned by the Shiekh and all
 

Mukandpuria

New Member
Messages
1,413
Somia thanks that actually helped put everything together....

the pic...I know they are strict in bring in camera (not sure if that is only during Hajj though)
but the pics inside...they must have gotten permission to get them...I know that tv stations have camera hooked around Masjid Al-Haram...we seen it live..like Hajj, Prayers, Eid prayers, Taravee, even when the Ka'ba inside is being cleaned by the Shiekh and all
just a comment...i was watching the TV and they were showing it live...and i was really impressed in how neat and clean the lines where around the kaaba....only if our bhangra dancers could create neat an clean lines like that..
 

Somi

Hookah is NOT harmful!
Messages
553
DUDE Abhi....yes....i look at that every night...i am not sure if there are lines there or not, but yes they are perfect


*only if man, only if* :D
 

Temurzai

New Member
Messages
397
can i just say that my family on my fathers side has a thorough family history and information on each father of every father and their lives, evn i am in the family book but nothing is to be written of me til later on. this chronological history record is kept by my family in iran, ive skimmed thru it once (it is written in arabic and middle persian both of which im only ok at reading), and my great great great great x 1million ahha grandfather mentions a certain Abdul Ziyad aka Abdul Mazeed in arabic , who was rumoured to actually be Baba Nanak under an alias during his travels thru persia and arabia.

i mean i pretty much will believe that to be truth, this book is authentic as shit, but has anyone else ever read on that? that baba nanak jan used that alias? im pretty sure its true, but i was just wondering if small details like that ever get to indians. like summy said, baba nanak jan goin to makka is a touchy subject for alot of sikhs, which is dumb, why would someone deny he went?


also, seeing as how a few posts have been made since i began typing this side response of mine...i will say this that Muslims actually did NOT pray to the kabba in early original Islam. they prayed to Jerusalam, like Jews.
 
Messages
76
I have a question. Why is Mecca exclusive to only Muslims? I mean anyone can go to any Gurdwara in Punjab. In fact, many Gurdwaras were made in areas so any one who needed aid or a place to stay could go the Gurdwara and get all they need for free.

Also Summy why would that enrage Sikhs knowing about Guru Ji's travels? Guru Nanak Dev Ji went all over the place teaching people to be humble and to help everyone willingly without asking anyone to convert or change their religion. I think thats one of the greatest aspects of Guru Nanak Dev Ji that he was so willing to roam the world to learn as much as he could from everything to better understand his belief in God and to help the people he meet. Plus, he went with Bhai Mardana Ji who was going on Hajj to accompany him and teach people his "Realization."
 

ranjit singh

New Member
Messages
308
sulmoney said:
the saudi government uses a Quranic verse to justify why they keep non-muslims out of mecca: "O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unpure; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise." -- Quran, 9:28

-jacked from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca)
 

rajkaran

Member
Messages
720
Abhi said:
Somia thanks that actually helped put everything together....

the pic...I know they are strict in bring in camera (not sure if that is only during Hajj though)
but the pics inside...they must have gotten permission to get them...I know that tv stations have camera hooked around Masjid Al-Haram...we seen it live..like Hajj, Prayers, Eid prayers, Taravee, even when the Ka'ba inside is being cleaned by the Shiekh and all
just a comment...i was watching the TV and they were showing it live...and i was really impressed in how neat and clean the lines where around the kaaba....only if our bhangra dancers could create neat an clean lines like that..
I watch it sometimes on TV as well...they show it on certain channels during namaaz time...I'm pretty sure I've seen lines and some "directors" and helpers (those wheeling elderly in wheel-chairs)

btw...if U want coordinated...check this out...Korean Arirang festival
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/05/vo.nkorea.arirang.ap?iref=videosearch
 

Waleed

New Member
Messages
729
Abhi & Naveen,
The Kaaba is sacred because it is Allah's house. It is exclusive to Muslim's only as it has great religious significance, it is the converging point that all Muslims must face. For Non-Muslims, the significance of Mecca and Medina (two holy cities) will never be the same even though they might be very respectful. The cities share a very deep connection with the Islamic faith and its history. Muslims believe, that originally the Kaaba was built by Adam (first human being) and then rebuilt by Abraham and then many years later Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) claimed it for Islam. Before the Kaaba, Muslims actually prayed in the direction of the 'Dome of the Rock' in Jerusalem (third holiest site in Islam) and during Muhammad's (PBUH) time God told him that all Muslims must not pray in the direction of the Kaaba. This is honestly a long talk and I am jam packing it with information and jumping around from topic to topic, I would suggest reading the wikipedia article on the Kaaba (I read through the entire thing, there is no misinformation that I saw).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

Ps. Non-Muslims are allowed in Mosques or anywhere else, just the two holy cities are off limits.

Summy said:
Quick question about Mecca... I witnessed a conversation one day. It was in a class in undergrad, two guys that never met. One was a hindu guy, and a muslims guy. I merely witnessed it. The muslim guy said to the hindu that in islam they dont believe in idol worship. THe hindu guy replied with, well you pray to that black stone in Mecca, and thats the place you point to when you pray, how is that no idol worship. THe muslim guy didnt respond. Then as an obvious sikh, the muslim guy says to me, yeah your an idol worshipper too, because we pray to a "booK". He didnt say it in a disrespectful tone or else I would be writing this from my jail cell, but I was just interested in what Muslims have to say about that...
An ignorant comment by who ever this Muslim guy was. Worshiping idols is strictly forbidden in Islam, but most people just assume that by idols we mean statues. In Islam idols mean anything that we hold too much in high regard or respect more than God, such as money, wealth, worldly pleasures, etc. Again, all Muslims praying in the direction of the Kaaba is a concept that unites the Muslim masses ('Ummah'). No Muslim, prays to the black stone or anything of that sort, the black stone just happens to be attached to one of the corners of the Kaaba. Summy, I really liked the story regarding 'Guru Nanak Dev Ji', it shows he was a man of great virtue and patience.

On a side note, it gives me great joy to see Muslims,Hindus and Sikhs discussing and being open about our faith and educating ourselves. I know discussing one's religion is not an easy task and very taboo but I feel that understanding another person's faith gives you the most accurate glimpse of where they're coming from. There is sadly a lot of mistrust and dislike between our religious communities (especially in Punjab). I am filled with optimism to see our generation take steps (as small as they may be) to heal the gaps between our people.
 

Summy

New Member
Messages
11
Somia, thanks for the response. So whether sikhs are called idol worshipers, because we do bow in front of our Guru Granth Sahib Ji, or whether hindus are called one, or muslims, we can all agree that term is pretty stupid right...

Im sure a hindu would say that their murti has no value itself, but what it represents, and same thing goes with it in sikhism... So where that term came about and how it is placed in certain religion but not others boggles my mind...


in completely unrelated news.. so i heard the new jazzy b song.. rambo.. does he really say something like gym vichon muscle banee firda, doliyaa de sher pawaii firda, kudi ne mera naam raakhiya rambo rambo.. hahahaa. That is the dumbest shit I've heard ever... I think jazzy b is running out of idea, I cant believe he was the same guy that sang udham singh london jaa ke...
---
Naveen,

I dont know, if you heard your guru jee was kicked and insulted by some ignorant people on a religious journey, I can see why people would get upset. I think people get upset when they find out how he was recieved because at the time he went, he was revered in India.. I think thats where the problems lie... I dont get upset... Gur Tegh Bahadur was decapitated infront of the public masses by the mughals, its just ignorance that has existed for a long time by people regardless of religion.
 

Somi

Hookah is NOT harmful!
Messages
553
On a side note, it gives me great joy to see Muslims,Hindus and Sikhs discussing and being open about our faith and educating ourselves. I know discussing one's religion is not an easy task and very taboo but I feel that understanding another person's faith gives you the most accurate glimpse of where they're coming from. There is sadly a lot of mistrust and dislike between our religious communities (especially in Punjab). I am filled with optimism to see our generation take steps (as small as they may be) to heal the gaps between our people.
aww Waleed...dont cry ;)

but no it is awesome though.....at CSUS we have these mingles every other thursday at the Sikh Student Association meetings...even though I am the only Muslim that attends but it nice getting to know the religions ;D
 

ban3rg

Active Member
Messages
1,492
This is such a cool thread.

Summy - Great story, truly beautiful. It made me remember a story my friend once told me about the prophet Mohammad (I'm sure this is a more famous parable, I'm just retelling from memory).

I forget the exact beginning, but the premise is that the Prophet used to go out on this particular road every morning (perhaps for a walk or some given purpose). And every morning, he would pass by the house of a very disrespectful man who would give him "gaali" (insults) and curse at him, calling him names (dog, kamina, bad words, etc.) And each day the prophet would smile back and say "good morning to you too" or something to that effect - completely unaffected. For many months this passed, the uncivilized man and the prophet were both relentless in their habits.

Then one day, the prophet went out for his walk as usual, but noticed that the man was not on his usual spot, shouting insults - he was nowhere to be seen! Wondering what happened, he stopped by the man's house and found him lying sick in bed. The sick man, surprised to see the prophet at his bedside, asked "What are you doing here!?? What is the meaning of this??"

The prophet replied, "I noticed you weren't at your usual post, and was concerned something had happened to you." He proceeded to care for the man and bring him back to good health. Of course, that man never cursed at him again.

Anyway, it's unusal for me to be touched by parables of this sort, but I really liked this story - if anyone knows how it really goes I would love to know a better "version."


Two other things brought up in this post which I found interesting:

1) Summy's story about which way to point one's feet, since God (or the House of God) is considered to be everywhere - I have always wondered this. In gurdwaras, temples, and mosques, it is customary to remove one's shoes, and even clean one's feet before stepping inside. When a priest flicks droplets of holy Ganges water on Hindus, my elders in India and here have maintained that one should cover the feet and make sure no water falls on them. It's also impolite to show the soles of one's shoes/feet in Middle Eastern cultures I believe (I think it was Mike Wallace or some other 60 minutes reporter who went to interview Saddam Hussein. When Saddam first entered the room to begin the interview, he had barely sat down before he abruptly left again. Puzzled, the reporter asked what was going on, and one of Hussein's aides told him that he had tilted his soles upwards and thereby insulted Saddam since one should not expose the soles of the feet in the presence of others). Many of my elders apologize if their feet touch someone else's by mistake or get insulted when it happens to them and the "culprit" doesn't excuse themselves.

My question is, why this stigma with the feet being associated with the lowest/most disrespectful part of the body? You may answer that they mix with dirt and dust, and are unclean, or as Summy mentioned, dirt on the shoes can contain organic matter from decomposed organisms - and death or things associated with death should not enter a holy place.

However, this seems strange because most faiths hold that God is present in all things (dead AND alive, feet AND head) that death is part of the life cycle and is inherently not something "bad." The feet are part of the body, isn't it? Why must they always be hidden or facing away from sacred objects? Even when they are clean? Besides, if one's mind and soul are pure and just, should it matter what orientation their body is when they are thinking of God and praying? Cleanliness applies to mind first, and physical cleanliness second, in all religions, no? After all, an evil but hygienic person is no better than a saint who hasn't showered for a few days.

I can understand why people shouldn't use this argument to justify pointing one's ass or nether parts towards holy things (that is obvious), but the feet/shoes thing might be overdoing it.


2) Idol Worship: one thing I have noticed among Christians, Muslims, and Hindus alike is the wearing of talismans or lucky charms. Many Hindus wear a necklace with a pendant showing a saint's picture, or the symbol of Om. Some muslims wear a necklace with Allah's name written in calligraphy, and the Cross as a pendant, or rosary, is commonplace. Can this not be a form of idol worship?

I know the answer is probably: no, no one is worshipping these inanimate objects, they are simply there as a reminder or a helper - to help someone think of God in the abstract sense - like the kara for Sikhs is not something to be worshipped but rather a constant reminder of one's duties etc...but many people all over the world take the cross, the Om, too seriously I think - clutching it all the time or kissing or bowing to it - rather than keeping everything in the mental realm. Anyway what do you guys think...
 
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