Rap music is...

[Somi]

for all you bhangra heads, that's Grand Theft Auto the video game, not GTA bhangra. lol.

hahahaha
i soo thought of the team! ;D ;D

 

[Mukandpuria]

i am have to read this some other time, but damm Summy you can write for days bro

 

[Varun]

You know what I REALLY REALLY WILL ENJOY DOING? HANDING VARUN HIS TUTTAY ON A PLATTER...


It is truly a great artform for brainwashing the youth. And it has succeeded, your not different, your part of the masses Varun, get over yourself. Ohh and dont speak punjabi.. kakaa, not kakey, i was the only one talking hahahaha... that halirious... please dont attempt punjabi EVER again...

Your problem with rappers was they are disrespectful and have lewd lyrics. You just said quite possibly one of the nastiest, homoerotic comments about my genitilia I have ever heard. Its really gross, Summinder. I am not even name calling but you decided to resort to that "Bill o'Reilly school of argument" tactic.

What does BTF think about the Summy's linguistic analysis of my apparent grammatical mistake? My nanaji always called me kakey when I was younger, and I do believe it can be used in the singular tense. Just like Veeray (that means brother, Summy) can also go to the context or Babey (as people refer to Guru Nanak Devji sometimes).

If you think me personally singling you out and disagreeing with your beliefs was an attack, I apologize. I am trying to be polite in debate. Maybe you should too, sir. We may actually listen to your argument then.

 

[Summy]

Harman Im goign to have to dis-agree with a lot of your statements. First off, if you believe those five things make up rap music, a support of one, does not nesscarily mean to promote the others. Also, thats a huge generalization of what hip hop culture is, and pretty inaccurate in my opinion, and I am sure a lot of other people's opinions as well.

You just proved my point saying that KRS-One, and Public Enemy were doing well in their prime which was a LONG TIME ago. Your lack of perception and pre-concieved notions make you believe as if I am just lackadaisical in my assumptions. I am well read, and have better understanding of this culture much beyond the "rap is bad because it degrades people" understanding.

Lupe Fiasco, Common and Talib Kweli may have some examples of "conscious rap" but they are mainstream artists who continue to use the N word. Again your misconceptions are horribly evident as I never said there was no conscious rap. But if you came into my posts with a open mind, you would have seen that I was critical to artists such as JayZ and Nas, and the MAJORITY of rap, which continues its downward spirral. If I say Rap is horrible, and state in the same post that not all rap is bad, as a MAJORITY, the MAJORITY of rap is guilty of what I accuse it for. Please keep your minds open, and the mis-conceptions in your mind.



And your commentary on how I have "no right" to tell a black person to use the N word or not. Thats seriously one of the most uneducated, and irresponsible statements ive heard you say. And its surprising to hear that from you, it really is, I would have expected better. If you would have read any sort of mission statements regarding the abolishment of the N word, from any sort of miniority enpowering group like the NAACP, you would realize that everyone has a right and obligation to abolish this negative term. First off, I couldnt stop laughing after you said Jesse Jackson is supposed to be a MORAL BEACON... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa. Yeah, ummm, just because hes a noticeable black man doesnt mean hes supposed to be a moral beacon. haha. Case in point:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T_valZekCk0&feature=related

I think you need to read up more on who Jesse Jackson is and what morality he has displayed. Insulting Jews, cheating on your wife, and many other things does not make you a MORAL BEACON.

Regarding MLK, if you use a word in private (which if you could verify with some sort of evidence) I have no right to say anything, its his PRIVATE LIFE. But if these rappers who release their music publicly, and influence young children, then its much more problematic. He did say negro publicly which is a completely different word in itself. But you need to recognize the difference of public and private use of any word never mind words based in hate. Again, I cant believe you claimed that only blacks should be against the usage of the n word, and that ONLY blacks could have any sort of insight of whether the word should be used or not. WOW. Um, how many books can I send you? How many groups should I refer you to? Wow. Using a racist term is something that can be used within and without a race. So, implying that non-blacks cannot use the word, whereas blacks can use it, and going further and saying that "For black people, to use it with one another is a loving thing"... is absolutely insane. Like out of this world. Just read ANY mission statement from the NAACP... better yet watch this video...

http://www.abolishthenword.com/


The use of the n word as a communal thing, is specific to minority balcks and revolve around the rap industry. If you read "N*gger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word" by Kennedy something, I book I had to read for an undergrad course, you would see that some use the 'n' word communally becuase it can be a justification for the abuse of it within the black community. Even if you can so biasely claim that as a non-black, I should have no insight into the use of this word, I can at least enlighten you in the history of the word. Read the book, and you can see that there were efforts made by off-shoots of companies assoicated with the degradation of the african community to make the use of the n word a regular occurance in society. They actually tried to make acceptable throughout mainstream language usage, partly to continue on the negative conatations of the word. The fact that the RAP community, and not the black community, have decided to change the direction of the word in defiance of its previous conatations is EXTREMELY ignorant, as the best way to stop the connatation is the abolish the word completely. The use of the word in your examples that you so arrogantly define as "beautiful" is more for in the nicest of terms, artisitic. In reality, it is radical and shock provoking which is and was its purpose.

Im not going to have this argument of the viablitity of the n word, because im done with educating. People should not automatically assume that because a select few with high influence decide to change the connatation of the word, that it is acceptable and should go forth. Rather, than looking at moral compasses like Jesse Jackson hahahahahah, sorry couldnt help myself... we should look at organizations that look to further miniorities and how they see what the word does, and its impact on youth.

http://www.naacp.org/events/convention/98th/funeral/index.htm

Its SOOO SAD, that there is SUCH a culture for change, and SUCH a culture to abolish the n word in every manner, be it with a -er or -a, and it is being undermined by some rappers who are attempting to justify the abuse of the word. Its horrible, and really sad, but I am glad that groups like the CP are moving forward with their fight even if it opposes heralded cultural figures.

So many places you can go into, go to psychinfo and type in the use of the 'n' word, in mainstream culture, and there are numerous studies done on the negative effect it has on impressonable youth.



If you want to quote biggie, I think the conversaton will be VERY VERY QUICK. I can give you alot more quotations from Biggie, that will make you struggle for air and comprehension of how such language and views of one's own community can be like that... So if you want to get into quotations, stick to conscious rappers and not into simplistic, over-glorified liar biggie, tupac and others.




FOR PEOPLE TO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE GRASP OF THIS ISSUE AND HOW CRAZY YOUTH HAVE BECOME... THIS TOPIC HAS GOTTEN A 166 VIEWS WITH 21 RESPONSES.... WHEN THE FARMING ISSUE WAS BROUGHT UP... IT GOT 2 RESPONSES, WITH 21 VIEWS.

INSULT RAP AND YOU GET AN IMMENSE BACKLASH, BUT YOU BRING UP ISSUES OF PUNJAB AND THE BETTERMENT OF INDIA, AND YOUR IGNORED.

 

[Mukandpuria]

FOR PEOPLE TO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE GRASP OF THIS ISSUE AND HOW CRAZY YOUTH HAVE BECOME... THIS TOPIC HAS GOTTEN A 166 VIEWS WITH 21 RESPONSES.... WHEN THE FARMING ISSUE WAS BROUGHT UP... IT GOT 2 RESPONSES, WITH 21 VIEWS.

INSULT RAP AND YOU GET AN IMMENSE BACKLASH, BUT YOU BRING UP ISSUES OF PUNJAB AND THE BETTERMENT OF INDIA, AND YOUR IGNORED.

Summy i agree that the Punjab's situation is more important then a Rap discussion. In fact my family has couple of mandis for khanak and this issue directly effects our business but don't you think that the reason there are more responses is because a lot of people on BTF listen to Rap music since they were little and have been around it. A lot of people on BTF don't live in Punjab to have a full grasp of the idea or enough information.

 

[Summy]

FOR PEOPLE TO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE GRASP OF THIS ISSUE AND HOW CRAZY YOUTH HAVE BECOME... THIS TOPIC HAS GOTTEN A 166 VIEWS WITH 21 RESPONSES.... WHEN THE FARMING ISSUE WAS BROUGHT UP... IT GOT 2 RESPONSES, WITH 21 VIEWS.

INSULT RAP AND YOU GET AN IMMENSE BACKLASH, BUT YOU BRING UP ISSUES OF PUNJAB AND THE BETTERMENT OF INDIA, AND YOUR IGNORED.

Summy i agree that the Punjab's situation is more important then a Rap discussion. In fact my family has couple of mandis for khanak and this issue directly effects our business but don't you think that the reason there are more responses is because a lot of people on BTF listen to Rap music since they were little and have been around it. A lot of people on BTF don't live in Punjab to have a full grasp of the idea or enough information.

Not saying i dont understand it, just saying that its sad. You know whether you convince yourself your punjabi, or you actually believe it, and people dance bhangra and want to claim their heritage its such a shame that they dont realize what culture they are actually closer to.

Its just sad, and horrible to see... but then again, its nothing new, so i roll my eyes, then hit up passtheroti.com, to read some real commentary. PLUGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

 

[Jeeti]

Let me applaud all of you for your arguments against Summy, but it's not like hes gonna change...so just agree to disagree...

..Summy..we all agree with you that punjabi culture is in bad shape..I don't think theres anyone on this forum that will disagree .....but your arguments are not constructive...they are simply criticizing without suggesting solutions to the problem...I would like to think that the people on this forum would like your opinion on the best way to move forward...you are just as bad as the people you criticize by saying that you are gonna put someone tuttay on a platter....what does that prove bro?...Jay Z can't disrespect women in his lyrics..but you can tell one of your fellow punjabi brethren that you are gona put his tuttay in a platter? Thats a bit hypocritical... come on man...i think your message is strong, and should be heard...but there are reasons why people can't stand the way you go about it....once again...man every time i read your posts...i really think you are on to something and then you say something stupid and it completely ruins your argument. If you want punjabi culture to change....LEAD BY EXAMPLE...and good examples don't put other peoples tuttay on a platter man.

 

[HarmanSingh]

Summy, the definition I provided of Hip Hop is the actual definition. It is not something I just pulled out of thin air. Ask any rapper the components of Hip Hop and they will tell you that it is what I listed. Hip Hop started with the DJing component, and rap came after. So honestly, its not a matter of your opinion, it is the definition of hip hop. And as far as Lauryn Hill, I think it is pretty fair to say she doesn?t object to rap when she was in The Fugees, which had a rapper in it (Pras). Even Erykah Badu has collaborated numerous times with rappers, most notably The Roots.

You stated earlier it was IMPOSSIBLE for ?conscious rap? to be mainstream. I provided examples of rappers in the past who were both conscious and mainstream and examples of rappers who are conscious and mainstream now. You can?t just change what you say as the debate continues bro.

Regarding the N word, I stand by what I said. You as an Indian do not know the way the term is used in the black community. I am not sitting here and saying black people SHOULD use it, I am saying for you to tell black people that they are wrong for using it is absurd. You are under the severe misconception that only rappers or hip hop fans use the N word?it is used by a lot of people who have no connection to Hip Hop (Jesse Jackson included). Regarding Jackson, notice I said ?SUPPOSED? beacons of morality. I didn?t say he is moral, and I have read quite a bit about him and his past, so thank you. The point I am making is he is looked up to within the black community quite a bit. But don?t you think its funny you are all about the NAACP, a group supported by Al Sharpton who is quite the controversial figure himself, yet you have no problem with them? I read that information about MLK is a book I was reading, but I do not have the citation for it. I am sure you can find something online for it however.

When black people use the N word, it inherently strips it of its historical meaning. It is a community taking a word used to degrade them for their entire existence in this country and saying ?F You, we will use it in a non negative way and not let you tell us who we are?. Whether you want to admit it or not, the word HAS changed for the black community. If a man were to call a woman a bitch, it would have a completely different meaning than a woman calling another woman a bitch. A lot of women call each other bitches in endearing ways, but a man can not say that word in an endearing way. He just cant. The same follows suit for the N word. Another example, a Punjabi person making a comedy in which the lead Punjabi character is a buffoon happens all the time with no outrage. But if a South Indian were to do it, their would be outrage from Punjabis just as their should be because it is a different community insulting us.

Summy, I have read multiple times you saying certain people are not Punjabi and have no business telling you about the culture. For you to tell a black person he/she cant use the N word is even worse than that. For the history of this country black peoples? vocabulary and lives have been restricted, controlled and oppressed. For a white person, or Indian person to tell them they cant use a word is a form of this same oppression.

The N word is not the cause for the problems in the black community. Rap is not the reason for problems in the black community. People continue to ignore the real issues because its easier for the people in suits to complain about rap than it is to actually change the schooling system, legal system, and economic system in the inner city.

By the way, I liked that little quip you made in an earlier thread where you called someone ?fat and dark?. You are only supporting the ignorance of black=bad when you make statements like this. So your selective outrage is pretty funny.

 

[mafzal]

FOR PEOPLE TO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE GRASP OF THIS ISSUE AND HOW CRAZY YOUTH HAVE BECOME... THIS TOPIC HAS GOTTEN A 166 VIEWS WITH 21 RESPONSES.... WHEN THE FARMING ISSUE WAS BROUGHT UP... IT GOT 2 RESPONSES, WITH 21 VIEWS.

INSULT RAP AND YOU GET AN IMMENSE BACKLASH, BUT YOU BRING UP ISSUES OF PUNJAB AND THE BETTERMENT OF INDIA, AND YOUR IGNORED.

I gotta defend Summy here. He has a point, and I feel like an idiot for reading through this post myself, and for seeing how much time and energy people have put into their responses to it, but the the pesticides killing Punjabi farmers and kids post only got like 22 views. I understand if maybe people didn't have much to respond or say in reply to the farming post, but it didn't even get viewed. and it talked about little kids puking blood and getting damaged DNA... We should be educated about these issues and things going back home, as much as or more than the state of rap music...

Now to the rap debate, again I gotta agree w/ Summy somewhat.

A huge portion of the defensive arguments rely on lesser-known and less-mainstream artists. Fine, Lupe Fiasco Talib Kweli Common all these guys are great, they are intelligent, bla bla. Fine. They aren't the ones on MTV, though. They aren't the ones on the radio. They aren't the ones who have concerts in huuuge venues that sell out in hours. When I think of rap, I think of the guys on the radio right now. I think of the general trend in lyrics -- intimidating others, drugs, money, clothes, hoes, getting ass, stupid ass lyrics taht are seriously just STUPID, etc etc. I think mainstream rap is sick and as a girl there really aren't many songs at all that I feel comfortable listening to.

Prime example of STUPID lyrics:
Gucci Mane -
[Is you rollin?]
Bitch I might be
[Is you rollin?]
Bitch I might be
^ And that is the whole chorus through the whole song

It's the general trend, the general impression that matters. Naming all the good, underground artists out there isn't good enough defense. Why aren't these artists on the radio then? Why doesn't my little teenage brother know about them? It's what the impressionable kids and teens listen to that matters. And what they're listening to is SICK and it's STUPID! So mainstream hip-hop, yeah, it's overall horrible and just bad. The beats and music are sweet, then the actual rapping ruins it.

 

[Gugu]

FOR PEOPLE TO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE GRASP OF THIS ISSUE AND HOW CRAZY YOUTH HAVE BECOME... THIS TOPIC HAS GOTTEN A 166 VIEWS WITH 21 RESPONSES.... WHEN THE FARMING ISSUE WAS BROUGHT UP... IT GOT 2 RESPONSES, WITH 21 VIEWS.

INSULT RAP AND YOU GET AN IMMENSE BACKLASH, BUT YOU BRING UP ISSUES OF PUNJAB AND THE BETTERMENT OF INDIA, AND YOUR IGNORED.

I gotta defend Summy here. He has a point, and I feel like an idiot for reading through this post myself, and for seeing how much time and energy people have put into their responses to it, but the the pesticides killing Punjabi farmers and kids post only got like 22 views. I understand if maybe people didn't have much to respond or say in reply to the farming post, but it didn't even get viewed. and it talked about little kids puking blood and getting damaged DNA... We should be educated about these issues and things going back home, as much as or more than the state of rap music...

Now to the rap debate, again I gotta agree w/ Summy somewhat.

A huge portion of the defensive arguments rely on lesser-known and less-mainstream artists. Fine, Lupe Fiasco Talib Kweli Common all these guys are great, they are intelligent, bla bla. Fine. They aren't the ones on MTV, though. They aren't the ones on the radio. They aren't the ones who have concerts in huuuge venues that sell out in hours. When I think of rap, I think of the guys on the radio right now. I think of the general trend in lyrics -- intimidating others, drugs, money, clothes, hoes, getting ass, stupid ass lyrics taht are seriously just STUPID, etc etc. I think mainstream rap is sick and as a girl there really aren't many songs at all that I feel comfortable listening to.

Prime example of STUPID lyrics:
Gucci Mane -
[Is you rollin?]
Bitch I might be
[Is you rollin?]
Bitch I might be
^ And that is the whole chorus through the whole song

It's the general trend, the general impression that matters. Naming all the good, underground artists out there isn't good enough defense. Why aren't these artists on the radio then? Why doesn't my little teenage brother know about them? It's what the impressionable kids and teens listen to that matters. And what they're listening to is SICK and it's STUPID! So mainstream hip-hop, yeah, it's overall horrible and just bad. The beats and music are sweet, then the actual rapping ruins it.

Mariam, that's not the reason why this debate is going on. Everyone of us agrees that most mainstream is ridiculous. And Lupe and Common and tons of artists that don't rap about the "drugs, money, etc" are on MTV for sure now. I've seen videos from "Be" on tv, and definitely from "The Cool" as well. Lupe was all over the radio as well when his album came out and I justttt saw him a couple months ago in the "Glow in the dark" tour with Kanye. I go to Rock the bells every year which has a lineup of Wu, Mos Def, Roots, etc... all with "conscious" lyrics. But thats not my point. My point is that saying that these artists aren't "out there" is not completely accurate. While some of these rappers are not on the radio and publicized as well as the other crap, they aren't completely absent from the mainstream world. So, if there's a bad influence from rap, there definitely is a positive impact as well from these other rappers. Hence, the correlation of crime rates and hip-hop is completely absurd.



And here's what we were arguing when Summy made an overgeneralization about ALL rap when he said...

rap music is garbage. the stupidest type of music ever made. degrading to women, african americans and other people. i find a lo of people who find that mindless bullshit of any entertainment are those who live in a fantasy world and believe they can somehow identify with the lyrics when the artist's themselves are shitting on everyone.

Commercial or not commercial I can tell you when I smell shit. There is not one educated person, with any sort of morality that would enjoy the majority of Jay Z's, Nas's or any other douche bag's songs.

 

[Varun]

I think hip hop is a great factor into understanding some bigger issues on Race and Culture in the US. Not the music itself (though alot of reporting of urban life is embedded in it, which legislators should listen to, cause I can't remember the last time a Congressman threw a fundraiser in the ghetto), but the hype that surrounds it, can tell us alot about America. So, no, I do not think that this issue is completely something to be ignored, and though not as important as issues of death and economic suicide in Punjab, it still holds weight from a sociological viewpoint. I like how the main point of alot of Rap's critics is that the mainstream stuff sucks and it is terrible and the rappers are completely accountable for this and the perversion of teenage kids over the world. Its funny, because most of my favorite rappers have gone from very deep insightful lyrics to being just normal booty rap once they turned mainstream (Busta Rhymes, Snoop Dogg, 50 cent, etc etc). So what made them turn foul?

I would have to see the record lables. The A.R. staff that goes into the marketing and promotion of his artist, rather than his actual skills. Who are behind these labels? Not the rappers, but mostly rich white men. Labels that are controlled by huge media conglomerates that have stake in Fox News (Rawkus Records was by Murdoch's son) and Viacom (Mtv to NBC) as well as many others. These are all controlled by conservative white men. Sorry to generalize. But it is the truth. So why are they not blamed for this?

It is reminscient in the days of blackface minstrel shows in the South, where white people would put on shows of black people acting like dumb, ignorant sub-humans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

 

[Nikhil]

Alright, in all honesty I can't read any more of this stuff without saying some things.

First of all no one should be telling anyone what they should or should not be reading, listening to, believing in. It's your CHOICE to be educated on what you find interesting. If you CHOOSE to read this topic over other topics, the question of morality should be thrown out of the window, please. There is a reason why the off-topic section exists, and for people to be "shoulding" everyone into what posts are important infringes on personal choice.

Secondly, as an MC, YES A RAPPER/BELIEVER IN HIP HOP CULTURE, I have been saying that this culture has been fading, to the point where I can't listen to the radio. No I don't listen to that garbage. I listen to Classic Rock, but I STILL LOVE AND BELIEVE IN HIP HOP. What you hear on the radio is precisely what every person is saying on this thread; one dimensional garbage. Literally, it really is 1 dimensional because all these "artists" are only rapping, meaning they only recognize 1 aspect or dimension of a whole culture. To me, and many others, they aren't real hip hop artists.

Mariam, the reason why you don't hear "good music" on the radio is because you need money to "finance" your song...you need to put the money up front to sell the song to your local radio station in order to be on rotation. That's how it works. How do you get money? You sell drugs. You do illegal things to get the money to advance your record. The radio corporation will not care if you have good meaning and rhyme WITH reason unless you have money. As Harman said, its a matter of politics with business. The suits really DO run everything. At the end of the day, it's business not a culture, to the producer. That's the freaking problem with Hip Hop and EVERY OTHER GENRE OF MUSIC. Take Indy genre for example. You would be considered a sell out if you did what was financially beneficial for your band, if you went mainstream. You do that to get money and earn a living, so really any artist making any type of music is going to be in a "win/lose" situation. Financing money by illegal means is an intrinsic problem with Hip Hop, because it has been done so many times over the course of history that its accepted. Reference: Rick Ross.

Yeah, rap lyrics ARE stupid. But can you say that about every rap song? No you can't. Emo songs are stupid too. So are country songs. Hell even Bhangra songs are stupid when its about Daru and Kudiyan. Are all songs from these genre's ignorant? No way. You're going to find problems everywhere with anything you encounter. That's the nature of the beast: the beast being freedom of speech.

Summy:
The bottom line is: enjoy whatever you want. You choose to do so because you find something valuable in it. If you want to call it garbage completely, whatever that's your prerogative. If you want to be educated about the complete spectrum, do it.

As far as the N word goes: It's not our word, it's not used on us and NEVER WAS, and we never have identified with it. That word is for the African-American community to debate about its value. Does it take away from Hip Hop? Yeah it may, depending on who you talk to. I listen to hip hop b/c I like word play, abstract thought and awareness. While a black person listens to it for other reasons, some of which pertain to the use of that word. Did that word exist before Hip Hop: Yes indeed it did. So why is this genre of music being targeted as the scape goat for its use/origin/negative connotation? Maybe because these rappers should use their celebrity to eradicate its use? I can agree with the fact that Rappers should do something positive for THEIR community, but I'm not going to suggest how they do that. Because I don't know what life is like in that culture. Do you?

I agree that rap right now is not good, but if it wasn't for people like Nas, who can learn from their mistakes, than you wouldn't have anything positive to hope for.

Summy you're a person that has strong opinions of how life should be, or how people should live life. Not trying to sound like a pessimist for your cause, but MAYBE it's not up to you to suggest such things. And by the way, calling people Dark and Fat plays into the stereotype that you're fighting against. That's why it's insulting and offensive.

 

[Summy]

OH MY GOD, I HAVE A FRIEND... Thanks Mariam... At least somebody gets it. I FOUND A NEW WAY TO CONCEPTUALIZE MY THOUGHTS WITH MY POSTS: I'LL JUST BREAK IT INTO TOPICS AND YOU READ WHAT YOU WANT TO... This is as per a request of my posts being interesting, but very long, haha...

Jeeti: Regarding the matter of the Varun's tuttay. haha. It was a joke, just a saying. Im young too, and its just an expression. Its not like I was seriously going to take his testicles and put them on a platter. If you were offended by that comment, then I apologize. It was in a context of fun, and I guess that doesnt come across on an internet website.

Jeeti- CRITISISM OF ME... First off, what would you like me to change. I didnt insult anyone, I was critical to an "art" form, yet I still come across as negative?... Growing up, I never had a Summy to spew awareness at me. I did it for myself. I found the solutions, volunteered, changed my mindset by myself, and then got connected to places where I could make a good difference. Not saying this in a negative way, but im not your friend. Im not going to say, OKAY, THIS IS THE PROBLEM AND THIS IS HOW YOU HELP. Doesnt mean I dont know how to... But the Indian and punjabi community, especially western born kids, the MAJORITY (not all) have been spoon fed their whole lives. Im not going to tell you what to do. You will never gain any sort of accomplishment from that... Become aware, do it yourself, the solutions were never given to me, or anyone else who changed their mindset regarding the world and punjabi community... So if I continue the trend of, OK NOW DO THIS, and then AFTER DO THIS... It will get us nowhere...


Harman Paaji: I dont want to ask any rapper about the components of hip hop. Hip hop culture is not defined as this plus this equals this. No culture is. What about dress, language, "slang" (demeaning word), viewpoints, etc... So many things that exist within hip hop culture, that is ignored by your equation. See, now I have to Applaud Sulman, Waleed and the other guy who made this site... The good thing about BTF, is that you dont have load another page to see what the other person wrote.

Tell me when I said Lauryn Hill opposed Rap. Tell me when I said Erykah badu opposed rap. Tell me when that conflict was made, and I will never talk again. I said, I, Summinder Singh Dhaliwal of Punjab india, enjoy THEIR MUSIC as oppose to rap music. Why are you putting words into my mouth?

Whats your opinion of Conscious Harman...

Talib Kwaeli: You wack nigga, you about to get shot
F**k with Talib Kweli, that's how you get got

(Wack nigga) Wake up in the morning dawg, and you a
(Wack nigga) I'd kill myself if I was that
(Wack nigga) Everything you wear and rock, is just
(Wack nigga) Even if you flossin' rocks you still

Shall I go on...

Now I have listened to some of Talib's stuff, and some of it, I like it... It is defintely a set up from the Nas's, Jay Z's, and all of that bull, but to say that he is conscious?.... ummm no. Really conscious rap music are people that the mainstream wont accept. Because a) they are empowering and b) something that I found out with POL and BTF... people dont like when you get moral.. it upsets them... it makes them feel like less of themselves.. People want to hear how they are helping the world, and how with them, everything is great.. not how passiveness leads to ruins..



Regarding the 'N' word: You said that for me as an Indian, I should not tell black people to not use the word. Well, as an Indian, if I heard a racial slur towards my people, if somebody called me a "paki", or a "alloo" or "12 baj gaye"... If a third party was there, I dont care if they were black, white, yellow, green, purple or from mars... if they are educated in the matter, and understand the connatation of that word... every single human being would hope that they would stand up against that racism.

NAACP: Basically the NAACP views the matter this way as well. First off Harman, you tried to lower the status of the NAACP, the singlest most heralded group in miniorities rights in US History, by saying Al Sharpton supports them? Umm if we evaluate the legitamacy of a group by their supporters, ahha, the world would be in BIGGG trouble. Im sure many rapists, murderers, child molesters, and other digusting human beings support ummm lets go with Barack Obama, but im sure that anyone could recognize that has no reflection on Obama himself. Harman, you know I like your mentality on some issues, but you just pulled a FOX NEWS, on that one bro.. haha....

Yeah im gonna support the gorup dedicated to fighting for the rights of miniorites all over the states for 100 YEARS... Im not gonna have a problem with them... Any historical law student would know that in almost EVERY progressive race relation case from the early 1920's on, the NAACP have been heavily involved... they are the definition of amazing, and inspiring... I suggest harman you focus less on the radical supporters and mroe on their history and agenda.. If it wasnt for the NAACP many people argue that the US wouldnt have fixed their civil rights abuses, we owe ALOT to the assoication..

Their stance is that it is an international issue, the use of the N word, and something not bounded by race. The word was used inter-racially and can be solved with an interracial solution. I know what you are claiming, that the BEAUTY of the N word comes from the Rap community's ability to turn something bound in racism and terror into something powerful... Yeah, not so much.. first of the rap community- how many years old, dont know... doesnt have the right to change a word that was used in a negative sense since the ohhh for about 300-400 years.

"When black people use the N word, it inherently strips it of its historical meaning" haha, WHAT?!?! Says who? No, the "N' word has no changed meanings, and nobody is ready to accept that. What do you think the NAACP, the ASLAH and other organization extremely against this word, are as blind to the issue as you are claiming that we are all? Dont think I am so basic that I am one of those, HEY THE N WORD IS BAD. I realize its use in popular culture, and its meaning, but it doesnt make it right, and it seems like just because I am an indian the morality of the situation shouldnt be evaluated.


Read this, an opinion of a BLACK PERSON, that you might appreciate on the word Harman:

I believe the problem is that black Americans are still trying to deal with the past in so many ways, and one of the popular options today is trying to take this negative word and embrace it and change it into a word that will display unity in our race.

I find this option to be a form of self-degradation and self-humiliation. To take a word that has led so many black Americans, blacks in Africa and in the Diaspora to be burned and killed, to be spit and urinated upon, to destroy their owns homes, and dragged to prison and sentenced to death for crimes they didnt commit to be embraced is truly outrageous.

Unfortunately, commercialization and a consequent explosion of black American culture internationally have returned the term to broader public use across ethnicities. And from my experience, I have been offended on occasions when Ugandans have called me a nigga, which means to them a person who is hip or cool, or when they greet me or another black person and say "What's up, my nigga?


Its from: "Being a Nigger is not cool"
http://www.ugpulse.com/articles/daily/homepage.asp?ID=273

Read this too: http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/04.09.98/cover/nigger-9814.html

This thing of changing something horrible negative like that word into positive is distinctly an action of the rap community. Its horrible that again, groups like the NAACP who have been defending civil rights since 1909 and almost single handly brought an end to overt racism in the United States are being underminded by a rap community trying to be clever or use it for shock value. ONCE AGAIN THE NAACP HAS EXPLICITLY BEEN AGAINST THE USE OF THE N WORD N EVERY SINGLE MANNER, AND ADDRSSED THE USE OF IT WITH AN -A, WHICH THEY STILL BAN.


Two more comments and Im done: firstly, during the earlier days of POL, my friend, who now resides in India, also would post under my name. He used the N word towards something, and I literally be-friended him over that argument. So I understand the issue and the hurt of that word, and it shouldnt be taken lightly. That fat and dark comment was wrong and the fact that half of my undergrad honour thesis was on the issue of skin colour, it shouldnt have been said, but it was in response to an insult he made about me probably being some fat, dark sardar. So it was kinda of a hey, look at you type thing, and your right, it was wrong. Sorry if it offended you.






Punjab vs. Rap: No surprise here. Mariam hit in on the dot. Nobody even bothered to open it up. Speak volumes...

I wanna so I told you so, but id come off like a jerk... so, ill stick with..... hah.

 

[JotBrar]

yeah thats cool

 

[Summy]

Nikhil,

The fact that it was pointed out that the topics on rap got more views and responses than the ones on the betterment of Punjab is not a reflection on this site or its people... I understand your trying to police the site, and keep it up, but there is a limit... If people want to point out that absurdity, its not an insult to BTF members, or BTF, or anything like that. Its a commentary on an entire community.

Regarding the N word, its sooo heart breaking to hear your commentary on that and other peoples. The fact that our miniority races has become our ultimate divider not conquerer in people's minds... Wow. Look at the NAACP, and how they say all racism should be fought. A collective effort. I mean, i dont even know what to say. Its so disappointing to hear how fight against racist language and the abolishment of these racist terms is being restricted by the validity of skin colour. Wow.


Historically, not that I would EVER compare myself with him, not even in the same stratesphere, but people told Bhagat singh to go "with the flow". Bhagat Singh believed the fight for Indian freedom because he said, oppression of all kinds, are forms of tyranny, not just the one to our community. The British Raj used to tell Indians that we are here for a reason. Because Indians were too uncivilized and beastly to leave alone. That the language and their terms (n word?) were here to better us. That when they would stomp on our pughs, and burn down the religious centres, it was because we were living in falsehood. That their culture, their race, their mentality would live on forever one way or another... When indians used to look at other countries gaining independence, they used to say, we are not like them, we are worst, we deserve what we get.

Fast forward so many more years, and the mentality of this division still exists. You cant fight racism without people looking at your skin colour before. Wow. I bet Martin Luther King Jr. wouldnt be proud of us today. BHAGAT SINGH, a man who died not for his people, but for all... I bet if somebody said to him, that we shouldnt fight against oppression, and racism because our skin colour, our background differs... he would hang his head in shame.

The disbanning of different races, and their fight for equality is something SO imperialistic, and so a reflection of the division in our society caused by imperialistic notions, it hurts. It's exactly what during the most painful times of slavery, they told a black person, an indian, a jewish person... that he or she in the other part of the world, YOU are much more barbaric than them... so sad to see the mentality still exists in a more subtle form whether we realize it or not.


For all those people who help continue the fight against the mentality of oppression be it explicitly, or implicitly that we have seen today, remember...


Dont let the validity of your skin colour ever let you from stopping prejudice. Its a fight to break the shackles of oppression, that not just blacks go through, but that we all go through hand in hand.

 

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

you cant clump rap into a single group and generalize it and call it bad or good. there r many rappers out there and they all have their own styles and topics on which they rap. u have the rappers who jus try to make a shit load and go mainstream with a crazy beat, some wack dance move, and stupid lyrics (remember there r less of these) and then u have more underground rap where ppl dont "sell out" and rap what they believe and use their lyrics to express themselves. why do u think jay z started his own producin company. before u generalize rap and call it bad try listenin to more rappers and actually understand it. thas like sayin all aspects of how punjabis act is good or bad. u cant generalize anything. ppl listed rappers who r good lyricists...listen to some of their stuff. i like immortal technique alot altho he does tend to cuss alot but the dudes deep

 

[Arjun Barua]

Just wanted to mention that the N-word has been used by some Brits in the colonial era in reference to people of the Indian subcontinent.

 

[Nikhil]

Hey Summy.

I'm glad you responded to what I had to say. I believe that I did not explain my position on racism via my commentary on the N word.

Firstly, my response was not representative of my position with BTF, therefore I apologize if it was misconstrued as such. I know that it is damn near impossible to separate my personal thought on a topic from my obligations to the site so I apologize for that. My initial response on this thread represented my personal views. As a person separate from my moderator position, I merely tried to state that spinning a moral compass in a discussion was bound to stir up ruckus. When I stated my opinion of what some members were trying to say, I was doing so as a member, like anyone else, with no intention of policing anyone. Again, it's impossible for me to do this, so I'm sorry.

Secondly, I have had life-changing experiences with regard to racism and racial oppression. My experiences came from attending a small town, narrow minded High school, in which caucasians were the majority of inhabitants. The other minorities for that matter were NOT unified, and indians were targeted by African American's and Hispanics. It was a very tense experience. With that said, that does not mean I ignore racism, or that I have no opinion against it. Racism is unfortunately innate, and we all have to fight it everyday in some form or another. From my hardships at a public school, I would like nothing more for people to be unified and together. I enjoy college so much because literally there is diversity at every corner, and mature atmospheres are blind to skin color. Believe me, I am a proponent for equal justice and civil rights for ALL races. I don't fall for the Okey Doke; I don't let my skin color stop me from fighting against prejudice, and I believe almost all people on this forumboard are the same way.

With that said, Summy, in my personal opinion, I feel that African American's have certainly come a long way from their oppressive history. They are a race that is consistently targeted and yet they have displayed possibly some of the greatest strengths in humanity. Overcoming slavery and gaining independence, respect and civil rights is the greatest victory over the oppressor. Indians and Pakistanis have done the same, so to compare the two on their quests for independence is certainly welcomed and encouraged. It draws our ethnicities together. Within the quest of the African American population, I feel that one of their greatest accomplishments is taking control and ownership of a word that is historically the root of evil. They have taken this word away from their oppressors; that is POWER.

I personally feel, that because they have taken this word, they have the right to destroy its original meaning and connotation. Wouldn't you say that is inspiring? I feel that if we were able to do this for every race, destroying the evil roots of all racial slurs, we would come together as a result of taking control of what controlled us. My intention was not to upset anyone so for that I apologize. I agree with the mission statement of the NAACP. It's inception is founded on good will and faith that minorities have a say in equality, and I support that. My commentary is based on how African American's are able to control that word for the most part. I view that as advantageous to their race, and I trust that their handling of the concept and further evolution of the word, OR complete eradication of it will only benefit them and other races too. I don't think that any fight is being restricted by skin color. I believe its so far beyond that, because that horrid word attacks the soul and lifestyle of people. The word was to replace the identity of african americans. It was supposed to rub them out of existence without literally doing so. YES I abhor that word. But going along with the theme of evolution and departure from its original context, my feeling towards the word as it is used TODAY, differs. Haha, and no it doesn't have anything to do with spelling. If you feel that there is a lack of fight from my end based on my realization that I am not black skinned, than I'm sorry friend, but that is far from the truth.

I am not against what you believe, and I think you are a revolutionary (in a good way), Summy. I think you have characteristics of being a GREAT leader, because you allow fact to lead you but you bolster it with human emotion. I admire that. I just think sometimes it comes off as attacking people. I think you have the patience in communicating with people, but that the patience to see any change has not yet arrived. I have faith that most people on this forum board fight for many of the things you believe in, and I think if you instill a little more faith, than it will make you perceive things more positively. That's what I mean by people having the right to choose. You have to believe that people choose to believe what is right for them, regardless of what you believe! By chance, many people may side with you!

I hope that my explanation does not further upset you.

With Respect,
Nikhil

 

[Sam Brar]

your judging rap without looking at the full picture. And Summy do you have a life u type like essays for posts.

 

[Summy]

your judging rap without looking at the full picture. And Summy do you have a life u type like essays for posts.

Yeah I rather type an "essay" for a post, than havnig to read your brillant insight. Your the first kid who I've ever heard critisize someone else on the length of their interest on a subject. Expand yourself a bit... Go read some desi blogs, and some online communities that try to fight together for the betterment of the south asian mentality... then say to them.. YO HOMEY DONT YOU GOT A LIFE SON?

Nikhil,

That was an interesting post, and I appreciate your commentary on myself. Let's get the bad out of the way at the start... You said:

"I personally feel, that because they have taken this word, they have the right to destroy its original meaning and connotation. Wouldn't you say that is inspiring?"

Firstly, it is not the African American community trying to change the connotation of the word, rather the Rap community. I don't agree with the rap community in many aspects, and when any sort of morality comes from an art source that has preached, by far, a more negative than positive message, it should always be taken with a grain of salt. These guys that read the first two lines of my post, dont understand that I am not critisizing every rapper on the face of this year, for some sort lack of morality, just like I dont accuse every second generation punjabi for being ignorant to the issues... However, rap music as an entire entity, the positives outweigh the negatives, and as a complete art form, it is impossible to differeniate those two.

While I agree that African Americans have come a long way, I still believe there is a much longer way to go. I completely understand about your commentary of blacks and indians in high school being separated. BUT, when you reach a certain level academically or socially, miniorities are few and far between. When I see any miniority in and around my campus, I am proud that another miniority has risen above the subtle oppression that still exists to make it to a graduate facility.

Everyone understands what the rap community believes. That taking a word based in ignorance, and changing its meaning and ridding of its prior connotation is something enpowering. However, like I said before, if their objective is to rid the word of any determential effect, then follow the leaders of the miniority movement that have been fighting for the rights of us before any of our grandparents were even born... Listen to the NAACP, the ASLAH, who say that the best way is to abolish the use of it. It is no question that rap is using that word, in my opinion, and in other people's opinion as a shock value attempt to provide its community with some sort of pride. Its so sad, because the use of the word, after being used in a negative sense for 300 years, JUST BECAME SOMETHING EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE IN THE LAST 30 years or so. IT JUST BECAME SOMETHING THAT IT CANNOT BE USED IN ACADEMIA, SAID TO CHILDREN, WITHOUT IT BEING OFFENSIVE... And for the rap community to take a word, used for all the reasons I have stated so many times, and according to SO many scholars, have that word introduced into the ghetto's as a slang term by white oppressors, and continue to promote that word for WHATEVER reason is so sad.

Even if the NAACP decides to go back on their commitment to the end of word, and accepts it, the way that it is used in Rap music is anything less than communal. If the word is meant to be some sort of bringing together of people, wack N***er's isnt something that essentially preaches to that notion. Most of the time, that word is used in an insulting manner, with the SAME CONNOTATION that the whites used it for. When they called you that word, your ignorant, unsuccessful, below another person, and that word is used in rap music with the same connotation.


When you try to evolve a word based in Racism for over 300-400 years, and not use it respectably the way rap music uses it, the fight becomes futile. Dont get me wrong, there is nothing more I would like for the word never to exist, and that connotation to be gone, but changing its meaning if hardly the way to go about, especially considering the context it is used in many songs.

So like I said, the rap community who has a long history of being demeaning as an overall entity to their own community and other... versus... the single most heralded group in miniority rights, argubably in any country of all time. The group that without, blacks and all miniorities including indians would not have same rights as whites... the morality of the latter is much greater.





The institutations and agenda of imperialism still exists. The division like you stated Nikhil, is distinct to minoirity races, when whites typically are not divided. Its imperialism. The mentality of that blacks are worst than indians, and vice versa, when white seemingly are the "norm" is something that needs to stop. So if you as an Indian, can stand up against words like the n word that will eventually bring down your brethen then you will be getting some sort of justice for those people who the word was burned into their skin after being killed. As a community, miniorities, if we can show that ALL RACIST TERMS (that a distinct to miniorities) can be abolished, and that we are strong enough to completely abolish the word, rather that promoting its used in another manner, then it is great.


If you look at how the word is used in slang, and its meaning, the connotation of it being offensive still exists. NAACP, and other groups are not stupid nikhil, they know the connotation of the word, and they understand the rap community's seemingly justification for using that horrible word.


Just please continue to be vigliant and aware of how as miniorities we have been oppressed and just because landmarks were made in the 60's for one group, doesnt mean that negativity of oppression doesnt still exist in some sort of implicity manner.


Good discussion. Good post NIkhil.