Re: Modern vs Traditional Bhangra Round # 547

[Kush]

What does speaking Punjabi have to do with a dance from Punjab? Hmmm..lets think about this.

Maybe if we had people who knew Punjabi judging we wouldn't have teams dancing to songs about the genocide of Sikhs in Punjab (from the Tigerstyle Shaheedi Immortality CD). A non-Punjabi judge would not mark them down for that and would not realize the stupidity of dancing to a song like that. It takes away from the dance when you have people who have no knowledge of the language judging competitions. Another example- teams dancing to sad songs b/c they think the beat is sick. It happens all the time, yet a non-Punjabi speaking judge would not know the difference. Or how about teams who dance to inappropriate songs on stage degrading women and whatnot? Happens all the time.

You guys have this mindset that anyone who watches a routine can become a judge. It is absurd and ridiculous. Live teams and other teams focused on the folk aspect pay attention to lyrics and bolis when choreographing. This aspect is completely lost on a non-Punjabi judge. Otherwise you will have teams dancing to Master Saleem remixed thinking its sick, while he is singing about the death of his mother. I can't even believe this is even an argument. It makes no sense to have me judging a Garba competition because I have no idea what is being danced to, regardless of how much I may watch it. You have "qualified team captains" like Kinell saying the word "masti" is violent and other "full members" wanting people to translate stuff like " boli pani" thinking it means "water speaking". If you can't understand Punjabi you cannot fully understand bhangra. Period. This type of stuff is messing up the bhangra community bad, and I don't give a damn if I am Punjabi centric because bhangra SHOULD be Punjabi centric. I mean shit, it is a part of PUNJABI culture...not Gujurati culture and I will be damned if I let non Punjabis act like they know our culture better than us because they watch videos of performances yet have never been to Punjab, never spoke Punjabi or know anythign about the culture beyond this forum and youtube. Look at qualified judges picked by comps like Bhangra Masti and AVAP. They are all former captains of Punjab University teams and know the culture inside and out. When you have that, teams who go on stage with girls jumping on guys shoulders and guys throwing pughs off stage is not tolerated because they understand ALL of the culture, not just bhangra.

Basim, I don't know Summy personally but have had numerous discussions with him on this forum. I guess because I expect better from the bhangra community I am just like him. That is your decision to make. However, our thoughts are quite different and you can look at previous threads to see that.

YES, because EVERY punjabi person is THAT in tune with their own culture, that people of OTHER cultures could not possiblely know more about it in any regard. Don't get me wrong, I don't know insane amoutns about punjabi culture, but with regards to BHANGRA, i know more than the majority of punjabi's that I know personally. So who would you rather have as your judge, someone qualified because they wear a pagh, or someone who has danced bhangra on the circuit for 3 years (and is NOT punjabi)... hmmm. I'm sorry but i had a VERY big problem with that part of your arguement. Punjab centric, wow. rest of it is all good, and i agree with.

 

[Meistro]

Basketball is a really fun sport. I would say the NBA is somewhat of an entertainment business. People pay lots of money to see these world-class players go head to head. Its fun to watch when everyone plays by the rules. Wouldn't it REALLY SUCK if ONE TEAM was allowed to double dribble, and travel, and stay more than 3 seconds in the key, etc.? Im sure the crowd would still love it since this team would be dominating. But how do you think other teams would feel if the ref's weren't giving this team any calls and the team took advantage of this? Same should go for bhangra....Play by the rules. Respect the artform.

I know im a bit late responding to this... But for this arguement to work, that would have to mean if VCU did bhangra empires routine the exact same way, they wouldn't get first. That the judging was bias, such as the team paid the refs or something of that sort in the NBA. As far as i know no one has reason to believe this or has any proof that there was any bias at VIBC, they simply favored modern over traditional... The keyword in your statement is ONE TEAM was allowed to double dribble and the other wasnt... So i don't think this arguement is valid.

Mod Note: Content removed for violation of Section I, Rule 3 of the BTF User Agreement.

http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php?topic=1517.0

 

[faizan]

Acting out bolis is not THAT prevalant in folk bhangra, or not that I have seen.

The sammi i was talking about was more the female folk song.

On Mirza, my point was that the poem is actually pretty depressing, of course it is a love story. Sometimes teams use excerpts from the poem that are not really joyous.


Again, rubric wise, I don't really think understanding lyrics is that important. For a live team it is more important, but I don't really think it is a major chunk.

Still, I see your point. Understanding Punjabi would be important to judge a very traditional competition.

 

[Sher Foundation]

On Mirza, my point was that the poem is actually pretty depressing, of course it is a love story. Sometimes teams use excerpts from the poem that are not really joyous.

Again, rubric wise, I don't really think understanding lyrics is that important. For a live team it is more important, but I don't really think it is a major chunk.

Faizan, you just proved our point again while somehow also agreeing with us (how did you do that? hahaha). Teams should NOT be using "excerpts from the poem that are not really joyous". That is why understanding punjabi is more important. Bhangra was never meant to be a sad dance, its meant to the extreme opposite; its meant to be a celebration. And if there are teams out there that are dancing with a smile on their face to a sad song...then yeaaa

Meistro, although your basketball analogy is really good, theres one big difference. Bhangra never really had/has concrete rules like basketball does. It all comes down to what style you believe is actually the proper way of doing it. Back then, bhangra, jhummar, all these styles were split and were done by different people separately. Bhangra then evolved to include doing all these styles in one dance, and now teams have begun dancing to music and do not really incorporate all the original parts of the dance. So there are no concrete rules as to how the dance should be compiled. I can see you responding to this saying "but BHANGRA itself should be done the right way even if all other parts are not done". Although that is true, from india teams to vcu to us, im sure you see choreography that is NOT really "bhangra" and its just something creative...yet india teams get away with it...well...because they are from india, and teams like vcu get away with is because more of their dance is the traditional steps. We cannot get away with it because more of our dance is creative choreography and a smaller portion are the traditional steps. So although there is a correct way to do bhangra, i feel safe saying that almost no team today does the dance in its purest form.

Pavan

 

[Vick]

I'm not biased...

 

[HarmanSingh]

Faizan, Sher Foundation did a good job summing up my thoughts on your posts. It just seems like you are changing your argument as we go on from saying it doesn't matter at all to it does matter if you have a traditional competition. It isn't about "acting" out parts, but understanding parts. For instance, using Dangs during a boli which talks about Samma Valli Dangs or Saaps during a boli which talks about the thunderous noise of saaps. Would it make sense to do a kabaddi scene during a love song? No. But if you have non Punjabi speakers judging, that would be perfectly fine.




Khush, you are so off man. I would like to see where I said every Punjabi person is in tune with their culture. Or where I said they are all qualified if they JUST know Punjabi. Knowing Punjabi fluently is a PART of what I think is required of judges. Obviously, you should know the history of the dance and all the things that go with it by being a former dancer/musician. Your argument is faulty, because you fail to address the issue...which is that language is perhaps the largest part of any culture, and not knowing language means you do not fully know the culture. I'm sorry, but if you don't know Punjabi you are not qualified to judge. I know it hurts people who love bhangra, but it is just the way it is. You don't even know what the teams are dancing to, so how can you get the full experience? As far as your Pugh comment..I don't know where the heck you got that from. I am perfectly fine with a Hindu Punjabi or Muslim Punjabi judging as long as they know Punjabi. Wearing a Pugh is completely irrelevant to this discussion, and I would suggest you get the idea of Sikh=Punjabi out of your mind. Yes, I am such a bad bad man for being Punjabi centric in a discussion about PUNJABI folk dances. Its cocky to even think you can judge if you watch videos. I know full well I am not qualified to judge because I do not have enough knowledge of the history of the dances even though I have danced on a live team for 6 years now and I am fluent in reading, writing and speaking Punjabi. It requires experts, not just any old fudhu who thinks he is legit after watching KJ on youtube. Shit, you guys don't even know what team names mean yet you want to judge them?

 

[Vick]

Harman you make good points every now and then... But man, I can't help but see the similarities between you and Summy sometimes...

 

[kinnell]

You have "qualified team captains" like Kinell saying the word "masti" is violent and other "full members" wanting people to translate stuff like " boli pani" thinking it means "water speaking". If you can't understand Punjabi you cannot fully understand bhangra. Period.

I apologize that I could never be a qualified team captain in your eyes because I was not born Punjabi nor taught Punjabi.

In regards to the "masti" scenario. I named a few competitions that had violent names. As I said before, masti slipped out. I acknowledged my mistake, but feel free to continue to call me out on it.

While I may not be able to completely comprehend Punjabi, I do understand bits and pieces here and there and make an insane effort to learn the lyrics of the songs I perform and choreograph. (Ask anyone here whose had to spend hours online with me translating for me or the huge Punjabi-English dictionary that I use to translate lyrics). Just like you misspelling the word "anything" (as "anythign") in your post doesn't disqualify you as a qualified speaker/writer of the English language, my attempts to learn Punjabi (while making mistakes on the way) to better improve my choreography and better understand the songs that we dance to should not disqualify me as a team captain.

Harman, I apologize again that if my attempts to compensate for the fact that I was not born Punjabi in order to fulfill 100% of my requirements of being team captain make me seem unqualified to you. Thanks to people like you, people will now think twice and thrice before posting questions that may expose their inadequacies as "qualified team captains".

Fuck that. I am 100% proud to be Gujju. And I don't think me not being able to speak Punjabi, carry-on a Punjabi conversation and know every single Punjabi word holds me back from trying to be a good team captain.

 

[HarmanSingh]

Kinnell,

First, you don't have to apologize to me for not being qualified. I frankly don't care either way whether the captain of another team knows Punjabi or not, I was saying you should not be a judge because your lack of knowledge on Punjabi culture affects other teams if you judge. A non-Punjabi speaking judge penalizes all competing teams greatly. But you coaching your own team is your business, and I have no problem with it.

The issue isn't whether you try to learn Punjabi or not. I have no problem with anyone asking questions or with anyone trying to learn the language. I think that is great and wish more people would ask questions. But I DO have an issue with people who do not know the language acting like they are qualified and legit judges. Like I said, I know Punjabi but am not qualified. No shame in that, it is just the way it is because I was never taught bhangra by an Ustad, I just learned it as I went along. I have enough humility to admit that and would not try to become a judge until I was taught by Ustads who could guide me in the correct way to do moves, etc. Unfortunately, those resources are not available in Michigan. And it is not about being born in Punjab…as many people in Punjab and colleges likes PAU have no business judging either. I am saying knowing Punjabi fluently is a PART of being a good judge…not all that there is to being one.

And I think it is clear "anythgn" is a typo, while completely misinterpreting the meaning of a word like Masti is a lack of knowledge with the language.

Be proud of being Guju. I never said you shouldn’t be. Everyone should be proud of their roots and heritage. But if you are a judge, you will not spend hours learning each teams mix or bolis. You will have to translate in real time, no dictionary available. And under those circumstances, you sir are not qualified. I brought you up because you are a senior member on BTF who is a team captain who would thus seemingly be a qualified judge according to some people. Based on your past posts, I would say that is not the case. Sorry to make an example out of you, but the last post about Masti was the one I most remembered.

So I don’t care if you win 10 competition in a year and have the sickest choreo and are the sickest dancer ever…if you don’t know Punjabi, you shouldn’t be a judge. Period. Hell, you wouldn’t even understand what the MC was saying before each performance at Groundshaker, lol.

 

[Saleem]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
We're not locking the thread, but please keep it respectful between members. Thanks!
Saleem

 

[Vick]

I think Punjabis should stick to bhangra, Gujjus to garba, and since I'm neither, I get to choose... suckas...

 

[campy614]

I think Punjabis should stick to bhangra, Gujjus to garba, and since I'm neither, I get to choose... suckas...

+1

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

I think Punjabis should stick to bhangra, Gujjus to garba, and since I'm neither, I get to choose... suckas...

Let's get even more selective and only Jatts should be allowed to do bhangra since most of the boliyan are about them. Baaniyas are allowed to sell tickets to the shows though.

 

[kinnell]

And I think it is clear "anythgn" is a typo, while completely misinterpreting the meaning of a word like Masti is a lack of knowledge with the language.

It was a typo. I acknowledged the mistake and I do not know why I even put it in there.

So I don’t care if you win 10 competition in a year and have the sickest choreo and are the sickest dancer ever…if you don’t know Punjabi, you shouldn’t be a judge. Period. Hell, you wouldn’t even understand what the MC was saying before each performance at Groundshaker, lol.

I do agree, Harman, about your judge criteria. I do believe that you can have someone with basic knowledge of Punjabi without the ability to speak Punjabi fluently to be a decent judge. (I am not saying that I have a basic knowledge of Punjabi, but my skills are improving) Not being able to understand the MC may be embarrassing, but I don't think it's required to judge a performance. Basic knowledge of Punjabi should be able to tell you that girls should not dance to "Gabroo Jawan".

My main issue was that a qualified captain does not need to speak Punjabi. Wit judges, I do agree and believe that it should be highly recommended that judges speak Punjabi. However, I would choose more qualified judge with basic knowledge of Punjabi than a less qualified judge with fluent Punjabi skills. But that's my opinion.

Harman, you have to pick 1 judge: First judge is non-Punjabi, with extensive traditional bhangra/modern bhangra experience and only has a general knowledge of Punjabi. Second judge knows Punjabi fluently but only has experience with modern bhangra. Which one would YOU pick? Yeah, such circumstances are rare, but I'm curious.

 

[HarmanSingh]

Well, that is a scenario that can be entirely avoided by getting judges who know both the language and have experience. You can find em..its just a matter of if the organizers care enough to get them.

 

[kinnell]

Well, that is a scenario that can be entirely avoided by getting judges who know both the language and have experience. You can find em..its just a matter of if the organizers care enough to get them.

Avoiding the question, nice. You started a new competition (ie: like Desi Dhamaka). You have to pick ONE. Which one, Harman?

 

[ranjit singh]

cocaine is a helluva drug

 

[Jabar Jung]

anybody know what papaya seeds taste like?

Oh and whatever Harman says, just imagine i said what he said.

 

[HarmanSingh]

your question is irrelevant to what was being discussed. but if you must know, i would pick Judge #1...who would be unqualified just like judge #2.

 

[Dhesi]

I'm not gonna get involved in the last few posts on this thread about Punjabis and non-Punjabis and judge selection.

I did want to comment however on how some people think "Senior BTF Members" are qualified judges. I just wanted to clarify that as you can see below (much to my amusement) posts about papaya seeds and cocaine boost a member's post total and increase their status. There was that big discussion before about whether we should eliminate the Member titles, and it's no big deal that we didn't, but to actually use that as qualification for a member to be a judge is comical.

This post of mine does not carry any heavy information (I just wanted to point out the sillyness of some people). I'm gonna stop posting on this thread because of what it has become and I think we should honestly all stop posting in this thread because as so many have written "nobody here will change their personal opinion".

As for the "things to remember from this thread", I think the most important is that everyone should realize that their opinion is just that and holds no weight over the next member reading it. "You might not always be right" Oh no he didn't!

Papaya seeds are a helluva drug!
Does anyone know what cocaine tastes like? lol