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Re: Modern vs Traditional Bhangra Round # 547
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Kush
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Pugh comment came from the fact that is the easiest way to distinguish someone as punjabi, obviously not indicative of all punjabi people. And, it also drove you to say you would select due to your "punjabi centric" attitude, so my point was achieved. And i'm sorry, but did you NOT straight say that non punjabi's shouldnt attempt to say they know more about punjabi culture than PUNJABI'S. once again, I know more about YOUR culture than most of your punjabi's i know in south florida. Not only from youtube and forums, but I must respectfully disagree if you think that they provide no form of concrete knowledge about religion. It is forums and discussions that supply people who wish to be more educated on certain topics with the information and ideas necessary to learn. I think your punjabi centric attitude is misguided, and quite frankly, an arrongant idea.
Harman Singh, you are a genius. Everything you're saying makes so much sense and I'm glad you have the patience to sit here and argue but I have learned that it is pointless.
People here don't understand that being different in traditional routines in Punjab can be small- a different intro boli, a different order of moves, a diffrent style (skewed slightly)- for examples there's patiala luddi and so forth. The point is someone mentioned that we were brought up with Modern Bhangra in NA and this is not true. I was brought up dancing to a dhol all my life since I was a kid learning from Lal Singh Bhatti and Surinder Dhanoa. It is unfortunate that upon entering college there weren't 8 people who had learned from dhol in Southern California, but the people I did encounter swore they were Bhangra Kings. Bhangra is not about gimmicks, it is about style, execution and preserving the folk. I personally find teams on music who execute all their bhangra properly as essentially folk (just dancing to music instead). Some teams just can't find a singer and so forth.
As for Bhangra and Punjab. Bhangra has never been biased to religions- Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs all make up the population of Punjab- but Bhangra has found its roots being saved by mainly the Punjabi Sikh population. This is the reason for religious incorporated boliyan and so forth. The key word here is Punjabi. Regardless of religion everyone who has been dancing has been Punjabi (majority Sikh as I stated) and I'll be damned if they would ever say LOONGI instead of CHADRA. You want to see folk we can see it at mela's, real bhangra competitions and we can teach the youth true bhangra.
I am not against OTHER people doing Bhangra but as I have mentioned before and Harman mentioned now- this is an aspect of Punjabi culture and after everything Punjab has gone through and others have taken from our land it is absurd to take the last pieces of Punjab that we hold dear and distort that to the public as well. Bhangra is not, never has and never will be full of gimmicks, hip hop moves, and ridiculously made up moves that have no relevance in Bhangra at all. It is not about CROWD support either...you see people chanting names of teams who didn't do well at all at the time of placing or post performance (that doesn't mean they should win)- if judges were qualified and understood the dance they would place the teams that performed the best BHANGRA and not the best dance routine.
I have heard of bharatnatiyam teachers as bhangra judges or judges who have "Indian Dance Academies" as judges what do they know about Bhangra. I know a judge who was judging and the woman judge next to him disagreed with him and said they looked energetic so I think they should win, and the judge responded "did you see their feet and their synchronization to the music?" doing the wrong moves to the music being played (not doing bhangra on bhangra beats as an example). Judges need to know Bhangra- names, moves, and of course the Punjabi language. Bhangra is not in English, Gujarati or any other language- it is Punjabi and you can not be the judge of something, if you do not understand the basic foundation of the dance it self and in this case the language plays the biggest role.
Non-Punjabis throw competitions- it has become a money making scheme for them and it is really only unfortunate because they choose teams and they choose teams that are dance teams and not bhangra teams. They are using Bhangra as a way to make money, rather than promote the culture and raise awareness. Bhangra can be used to promote the Punjabi culture and Sikh religion and has played a vital role in the shaping of Punjabi School kids lives in the States. Unfortunately, when they grow older they are introduced to the drunk, arrogant, weed smoking, cigarette smoking idiots that have made a name for themselves at competitions. (Not naming any names but I saw the same group of guys smoking and then saying "Boley So Nihal" to open their routine.
For those of you who understand everything I am saying I appreciate it before hand, however those of you who will still make an argument I have nothing much to say to you guys. Bhangra is seen as a form of Punjabi culture that has been ruining our youth, and young generation. Parents tell their kids to be careful and don't get involved in the middle of a fight and so forth at competitions. One of the best examples of a great competition would be GIANT bhangra. Those guys promote culture, bring everyone to watch and enjoy with the family...maybe it is the crowd that should begin to appreciate Bhangra for what it is. If bhangra remained Bhangra people would appreciate it, the teams should not distort Bhangra for the sake of the audience, rather the audience should be happy to see that such a folk and beautiful dance is being kept alive the right way. Ive said this before, but Bharatnatiyam remains pretty untouched, Rajasthani folk dances remain traditional as ever and many other dances of India. Bhangra is Punjabi- not Indian not Pakistani. It is stolen by Bollywood, it is then spread into the media in America (Slumdog- screwing the lightbulb, the airplane) and nothing is worse than the world dance team in which India was represented by a group of individuals claiming to do the "Traditional dance of Bhangra" on US television- only to dance to a Hindi song, with no paghs and no Bhangra.
I think every Punjabi who hold their culture dearly close to them is allowed to express their distaste with what is happening nowadays. This is our culture and if we don't preserve it, we will leave it to people to think boli panni means "speaking water".
People here don't understand that being different in traditional routines in Punjab can be small- a different intro boli, a different order of moves, a diffrent style (skewed slightly)- for examples there's patiala luddi and so forth. The point is someone mentioned that we were brought up with Modern Bhangra in NA and this is not true. I was brought up dancing to a dhol all my life since I was a kid learning from Lal Singh Bhatti and Surinder Dhanoa. It is unfortunate that upon entering college there weren't 8 people who had learned from dhol in Southern California, but the people I did encounter swore they were Bhangra Kings. Bhangra is not about gimmicks, it is about style, execution and preserving the folk. I personally find teams on music who execute all their bhangra properly as essentially folk (just dancing to music instead). Some teams just can't find a singer and so forth.
As for Bhangra and Punjab. Bhangra has never been biased to religions- Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs all make up the population of Punjab- but Bhangra has found its roots being saved by mainly the Punjabi Sikh population. This is the reason for religious incorporated boliyan and so forth. The key word here is Punjabi. Regardless of religion everyone who has been dancing has been Punjabi (majority Sikh as I stated) and I'll be damned if they would ever say LOONGI instead of CHADRA. You want to see folk we can see it at mela's, real bhangra competitions and we can teach the youth true bhangra.
I am not against OTHER people doing Bhangra but as I have mentioned before and Harman mentioned now- this is an aspect of Punjabi culture and after everything Punjab has gone through and others have taken from our land it is absurd to take the last pieces of Punjab that we hold dear and distort that to the public as well. Bhangra is not, never has and never will be full of gimmicks, hip hop moves, and ridiculously made up moves that have no relevance in Bhangra at all. It is not about CROWD support either...you see people chanting names of teams who didn't do well at all at the time of placing or post performance (that doesn't mean they should win)- if judges were qualified and understood the dance they would place the teams that performed the best BHANGRA and not the best dance routine.
I have heard of bharatnatiyam teachers as bhangra judges or judges who have "Indian Dance Academies" as judges what do they know about Bhangra. I know a judge who was judging and the woman judge next to him disagreed with him and said they looked energetic so I think they should win, and the judge responded "did you see their feet and their synchronization to the music?" doing the wrong moves to the music being played (not doing bhangra on bhangra beats as an example). Judges need to know Bhangra- names, moves, and of course the Punjabi language. Bhangra is not in English, Gujarati or any other language- it is Punjabi and you can not be the judge of something, if you do not understand the basic foundation of the dance it self and in this case the language plays the biggest role.
Non-Punjabis throw competitions- it has become a money making scheme for them and it is really only unfortunate because they choose teams and they choose teams that are dance teams and not bhangra teams. They are using Bhangra as a way to make money, rather than promote the culture and raise awareness. Bhangra can be used to promote the Punjabi culture and Sikh religion and has played a vital role in the shaping of Punjabi School kids lives in the States. Unfortunately, when they grow older they are introduced to the drunk, arrogant, weed smoking, cigarette smoking idiots that have made a name for themselves at competitions. (Not naming any names but I saw the same group of guys smoking and then saying "Boley So Nihal" to open their routine.
For those of you who understand everything I am saying I appreciate it before hand, however those of you who will still make an argument I have nothing much to say to you guys. Bhangra is seen as a form of Punjabi culture that has been ruining our youth, and young generation. Parents tell their kids to be careful and don't get involved in the middle of a fight and so forth at competitions. One of the best examples of a great competition would be GIANT bhangra. Those guys promote culture, bring everyone to watch and enjoy with the family...maybe it is the crowd that should begin to appreciate Bhangra for what it is. If bhangra remained Bhangra people would appreciate it, the teams should not distort Bhangra for the sake of the audience, rather the audience should be happy to see that such a folk and beautiful dance is being kept alive the right way. Ive said this before, but Bharatnatiyam remains pretty untouched, Rajasthani folk dances remain traditional as ever and many other dances of India. Bhangra is Punjabi- not Indian not Pakistani. It is stolen by Bollywood, it is then spread into the media in America (Slumdog- screwing the lightbulb, the airplane) and nothing is worse than the world dance team in which India was represented by a group of individuals claiming to do the "Traditional dance of Bhangra" on US television- only to dance to a Hindi song, with no paghs and no Bhangra.
I think every Punjabi who hold their culture dearly close to them is allowed to express their distaste with what is happening nowadays. This is our culture and if we don't preserve it, we will leave it to people to think boli panni means "speaking water".
First red point:Jasjit Dhanoa said:
No one is going to throw a competition that loses money... Isn't the guy who throws down Bhangra Fusion a punjabi dude? Ricky or something like that... Last time I checked, Bhangra Fusion was the last thing from a traditional show.... This has nothing to do with Non-punjabis throwing shows, thats straight up stupid...
Second Red point:
I agreed with a lot of what you said, but Punjabi's are Indians... I'm sorry if you find it an insult to call yourself and Indian, and thats fuckin sad as shit, but you sir are an Indian.. I would love to see the shithole that Punjab becomes if it were to ever become it's own country. I know that Punjab has a strong economy, but it also depends on the motherland for a lot... I'm tired of seeing illiterate dumbasses who keep fighting for punjab to become it's own nation or something... California has an economy that is probably a million times more valuable than Punjab yet you dont see the pundits in California asking to be a different country...
"I agreed with a lot of what you said, but Punjabi's are Indians... I'm sorry if you find it an insult to call yourself and Indian, and thats fuckin sad as shit, but you sir are an Indian.. I would love to see the shithole that Punjab becomes if it were to ever become it's own country. I know that Punjab has a strong economy, but it also depends on the motherland for a lot... I'm tired of seeing illiterate dumbasses who keep fighting for punjab to become it's own nation or something... California has an economy that is probably a million times more valuable than Punjab yet you dont see the pundits in California asking to be a different country..."- Vick
Not understanding the struggles Punjab has gone through I think its sad as shit to adhere to a nation that was made by the British and then responsible for the Sikh Genocide only 20 years ago. Punjab is a region, it is distinct in culture and views. So before you get off on calling me Indian I'll let you know that half my families origins are in Pakistan Punjab and half came from what is know as East Punjab. So what am I supposed to say? just because the land was split into 2 that I have to choose a side? I choose neither. People who don't know the plight of the Sikhs wouldn't understand what Sikhs went through. The Sikh kingdom's ruled for much longer than India has even been a country- that was and IS todays Punjab. Punjabis share more in common with their Punjabi neighbors than they do with their own "countrymen".
Before you say that im talking about Sikhs and Punjab. I will have you know that during the 1980's Muslims and Hindus joined forces on many occasions in the battle for a separate nation because Khalistan was not an issue of only Sikhs but Punjabis in general. It was a Sikh struggle but also a Punjabi struggle.
I don't see many proud German Jews...I don't see many proud Indian Sikhs.
There's no such thing as forget, 250,000 Sikhs were killed, Guru Granth Sahibs burned...so something in which not only the Government but the civilians were involved in.... 12% of India's population votes in favor of RSS supported parties. 120 million support a country in which only Hindus should reside. There are only 25 million Sikhs in the world- we can feel threatened. Punjab was a separate country 150 years ago as the rest of India was British.
I'm a proud Sikh and a proud Punjabi. I don't need support off this forum to prove my point, I cant even EXPLAIN a hundredth of what happened to the Sikhs and their needs of a nation. I have spent my undergrad researching and will continue to pursue an education in this field.
I haven't put up much facts about Sikhs and India but I don't want to. I don't have time to argue about this- these are my beliefs and you can understand that many may feel as I do.
You sir, should never tell me what I am and what I am not. I have seen enough crap about the Punjabi culture on this forum and how it is defamed, the last thing I need is for people to say that Sikhs and Punjab don't have an important bond and will start explaining Sikhism to me and say that I'm wrong. Don't call me Indian- I don't feel comfortable being called that.
Not understanding the struggles Punjab has gone through I think its sad as shit to adhere to a nation that was made by the British and then responsible for the Sikh Genocide only 20 years ago. Punjab is a region, it is distinct in culture and views. So before you get off on calling me Indian I'll let you know that half my families origins are in Pakistan Punjab and half came from what is know as East Punjab. So what am I supposed to say? just because the land was split into 2 that I have to choose a side? I choose neither. People who don't know the plight of the Sikhs wouldn't understand what Sikhs went through. The Sikh kingdom's ruled for much longer than India has even been a country- that was and IS todays Punjab. Punjabis share more in common with their Punjabi neighbors than they do with their own "countrymen".
Before you say that im talking about Sikhs and Punjab. I will have you know that during the 1980's Muslims and Hindus joined forces on many occasions in the battle for a separate nation because Khalistan was not an issue of only Sikhs but Punjabis in general. It was a Sikh struggle but also a Punjabi struggle.
I don't see many proud German Jews...I don't see many proud Indian Sikhs.
There's no such thing as forget, 250,000 Sikhs were killed, Guru Granth Sahibs burned...so something in which not only the Government but the civilians were involved in.... 12% of India's population votes in favor of RSS supported parties. 120 million support a country in which only Hindus should reside. There are only 25 million Sikhs in the world- we can feel threatened. Punjab was a separate country 150 years ago as the rest of India was British.
I'm a proud Sikh and a proud Punjabi. I don't need support off this forum to prove my point, I cant even EXPLAIN a hundredth of what happened to the Sikhs and their needs of a nation. I have spent my undergrad researching and will continue to pursue an education in this field.
I haven't put up much facts about Sikhs and India but I don't want to. I don't have time to argue about this- these are my beliefs and you can understand that many may feel as I do.
You sir, should never tell me what I am and what I am not. I have seen enough crap about the Punjabi culture on this forum and how it is defamed, the last thing I need is for people to say that Sikhs and Punjab don't have an important bond and will start explaining Sikhism to me and say that I'm wrong. Don't call me Indian- I don't feel comfortable being called that.
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Just to reference some information on Punjab:Vick said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_(India) - Population: 24,289,296 Area: 50,362 km²
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_(Pakistan) - Population: 81,845,433 Area: 205,344 km²
I agree with Jasjit on this point that Punjab is a region shared/split by two countries, so one cannot consider the entire Punjab to be more Indian or more Pakistani.
~ Basim
imakhilyou37
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The prime minister of India, is a devout sikh...Jasjit Dhanoa said:
Just to let you know before hand, I consider myself a follower of Sikhism and Hinduism, both culturally and religiously, my dadiji is sikh and i get alot of religious influence from her.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the Sikh genocide occured in India because people in Amritsar were distributing mehtai after Indra Gandhi was assassinated...
I'm not saying it's right to murder innocent people because of that. It obviously isn't in anyway. Indra Gandhi was against Bhindrawale and the Khalistan movement. I'm bringing this up to show all of this happened BEFORE the genocide, rather than the genocide being another reason to support Khalistan the separation, i think it's safe to say the Khalistan movement led to the genocide in a way.
"120 million support a country in which only Hindus should reside. There are only 25 million Sikhs in the world- we can feel threatened" And how many people support Manmohan Singh as prime minister? and voted for a party that had a Sikh Prime minister? It was much more than 12%... That way there's a communist party in America... 120 million people sure that sounds like alot, but there are more than 1 billion people in India... So basically you're hatred on this nation is based upon what 12% of the country believes..?
Please try not to take anything i said out of contexts. I have nothing against Sikhs, Hindus or Muslims. Or you as a person for that matter, im simply stating my opinion.
The Sikh Genocide occurred because the Indian Army stormed the Golden Temple of Amritsar and killed thousands of innocent people. As for methai- it was a significant amount of Hindu's that distributed it in Amritsar upon the destruction of the Golden Temple and Indian Army's attack. That is where the genocide began. The genocide began that day, as Sikhs were handcuffed with their turbans and taken away and eventually killed. Villages were raided and anyone between 12-50 (MEN) were taken away and never seen again. The attack on the Golden Temple lead to the beginning of the movement. Bhindranwale clearly stated that he was never for a Sikh state but if the Indian government took such measures as to make a mistake to attack the Golden Temple- then that day would mark the beginning. If they wanted to flush him out of the temple complex then why attack 40 other gurdwaras?
Go look up the Rajiv-Longowal act and read about the Punjabi demands in those times. Punjab IS the only state in India without control of its own waters, it has no state capital- I'm not going to go into detail on a forum.
You want Bhangra related things on Khalistan? My dad's team was travelling to the Asian Games to perform Bhangra and they saw police men ripping off turbans and stopping Sikhs from entering the Asian games and this is in 1982- 2 YEARS before the 1984 attack. Indira Gandhi was killed in October and the Delhi Riots occurred...but the genocide had been going on for some time.
My quote about 120 million people is the reason I say Sikhs are mainly threatened. 26 years and no justice is the reason I don't want to be called an Indian.
This is an emotional topic, a touchy topic. Sikhs cut their hair in those days so they wouldn't be butchered by Hindu mobs and today we have Sikhs who cut their hair and forget what our brothers and sisters have gone through. We claim the Guru Granth Sahib as our Guru but after watching it burn in various gurdwaras we are beginning to forget what we have been though. It is not a book, it is our living Guru. I can not open any ones eyes and only pray that they can open their eyes and understand the history, plight, and todays downfall of Sikhi.
Go look up the Rajiv-Longowal act and read about the Punjabi demands in those times. Punjab IS the only state in India without control of its own waters, it has no state capital- I'm not going to go into detail on a forum.
You want Bhangra related things on Khalistan? My dad's team was travelling to the Asian Games to perform Bhangra and they saw police men ripping off turbans and stopping Sikhs from entering the Asian games and this is in 1982- 2 YEARS before the 1984 attack. Indira Gandhi was killed in October and the Delhi Riots occurred...but the genocide had been going on for some time.
My quote about 120 million people is the reason I say Sikhs are mainly threatened. 26 years and no justice is the reason I don't want to be called an Indian.
This is an emotional topic, a touchy topic. Sikhs cut their hair in those days so they wouldn't be butchered by Hindu mobs and today we have Sikhs who cut their hair and forget what our brothers and sisters have gone through. We claim the Guru Granth Sahib as our Guru but after watching it burn in various gurdwaras we are beginning to forget what we have been though. It is not a book, it is our living Guru. I can not open any ones eyes and only pray that they can open their eyes and understand the history, plight, and todays downfall of Sikhi.
Varun
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It is interesting that the issue of cultural traditionalism and its popular evolution (folk bhangra to stage bhangra) is coincided with a discussion on the evolution of Punjabi identity, Sikh identity, and Indian identity. One thing I would like for everyone to know about both the trends, as differing as they may appear, share a common characteristic: organized and logical reasons for change. To assume spontaneous friction amongst Punjabi Sikhs, Hindus, and Muslims as if it just came out the blue is as ignorant as assuming that bhangra remix and modernization of the dance had nothing to do with 5 decades of South Asian immigration. There are clear and historical reasons behind everything. Much of it is organized.
For example, saying Hindu mobs attacked Sikhs in the 1984 genocide. That is a very simplistic view on history. People will questions things like the use of the adjective Hindu. Who is a Hindu? What made this mob "Hindu" as opposed to other mobs? It is misleading to remove the effect that the Congress Party (a secularist party) had on organizing these mobs. It is also misleading to say it was the Congress Party as a whole that supported them. Then it is also troubling to people who like simplistic view of history, when they realize that a more Hindu-nationalist party like the BJP was the first to protest the work of their rivals, which planted the seeds of their long term alliance with the Akali Dal Party in Punjab.
Lets talk about bhangra. We all know that bhangra was a lesser known dance, pre-Partition, and was restricted mostly to central Punjab. Then in 1951, as the Indian government and Punjab state government realized the need for a cultural icon for Punjab, bhangra was given official patronage, dominant status, and tools for experimentation so it can grow, develop, and (gasp) modernize. Thats right. What we call traditional bhangra today is the product of a modernization effort 40 years ago. While this allowed Bhangra to grow, it let many other folk dances wither away. Yet to retain them, while uprooting them radically out of their actual folk context, the architects of tradtional bhangra as we know it took Mirza, Jhummar, Dhammal (a beat that has its roots in pilgramage to Sufi Pir dargahs) and meshed it into a stage dance. I am sure the people back then found a lot of problems with this. They uprooted the original meanings of these dances and their cultural contexts so they can end up on stage. And no, this was not the decision of the "evil" Indian government, these actions were carried out by veterans themselves like Ustad Garib Das, Baba Pokar Singh, etc.
Does this necessarily make them bad though? All they were trying to do was keep up with the changing times while not letting history erase the glorious pre-Partition past of Punjab. With this same empathy, we should try to look at what is going on today, both in the evolution of bhangra and in the Punjabi identity. There are clear reasons for a lot of change and it is not arbitrary, spontaneity that occurs.
Lets just drop the simplified histories and faceless mobs. Look at me. I am Varun. I have a strong heritage and connection to Punjab. All over. All sections as well, from the most rural to urban elite to diaspora living in Vancouver and Southern California. I love my culture and I want to see it grow. I love my language and I realize that it must modernize so it does not die. Cultures cannot be static or else they face extinction. Religion has changed much. Ideas of what a Hindu is have changed from when in the Vedas there was stated that "there is only One God but his names are many" to the present creation of thousands of sects that believe different things (polytheism, monotheism, atheism, etc.). Same with Sikhi, when Udasis like Baba Chand ji (son of Guru Nanak Dev ji) were known as the propagators of Sikhism while still maintaing, what we would call today, Hindu yogi customs and rituals to the modern Sikh identity, one that tries to move as far away from Hindu association as possible. These changes have a great history to them. They have pros and cons to them. It is our duty to understand the changing aspects of our cultures but also the Eternal part of them. The part that remains true for centuries. That is Sat. That Sat should ream Akal, and live forever.
As for Punjab and all the people we have lost through politics of sectarian separation, I just want to remind my Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, and whatever other Brothers and Sisters:
"bahey jeena di pakdiye, sir deejiye per bahey na choriye"-Guru Tegh Bahadur
You may have forgot me, but I cannot forget you. peace.
For example, saying Hindu mobs attacked Sikhs in the 1984 genocide. That is a very simplistic view on history. People will questions things like the use of the adjective Hindu. Who is a Hindu? What made this mob "Hindu" as opposed to other mobs? It is misleading to remove the effect that the Congress Party (a secularist party) had on organizing these mobs. It is also misleading to say it was the Congress Party as a whole that supported them. Then it is also troubling to people who like simplistic view of history, when they realize that a more Hindu-nationalist party like the BJP was the first to protest the work of their rivals, which planted the seeds of their long term alliance with the Akali Dal Party in Punjab.
Lets talk about bhangra. We all know that bhangra was a lesser known dance, pre-Partition, and was restricted mostly to central Punjab. Then in 1951, as the Indian government and Punjab state government realized the need for a cultural icon for Punjab, bhangra was given official patronage, dominant status, and tools for experimentation so it can grow, develop, and (gasp) modernize. Thats right. What we call traditional bhangra today is the product of a modernization effort 40 years ago. While this allowed Bhangra to grow, it let many other folk dances wither away. Yet to retain them, while uprooting them radically out of their actual folk context, the architects of tradtional bhangra as we know it took Mirza, Jhummar, Dhammal (a beat that has its roots in pilgramage to Sufi Pir dargahs) and meshed it into a stage dance. I am sure the people back then found a lot of problems with this. They uprooted the original meanings of these dances and their cultural contexts so they can end up on stage. And no, this was not the decision of the "evil" Indian government, these actions were carried out by veterans themselves like Ustad Garib Das, Baba Pokar Singh, etc.
Does this necessarily make them bad though? All they were trying to do was keep up with the changing times while not letting history erase the glorious pre-Partition past of Punjab. With this same empathy, we should try to look at what is going on today, both in the evolution of bhangra and in the Punjabi identity. There are clear reasons for a lot of change and it is not arbitrary, spontaneity that occurs.
Lets just drop the simplified histories and faceless mobs. Look at me. I am Varun. I have a strong heritage and connection to Punjab. All over. All sections as well, from the most rural to urban elite to diaspora living in Vancouver and Southern California. I love my culture and I want to see it grow. I love my language and I realize that it must modernize so it does not die. Cultures cannot be static or else they face extinction. Religion has changed much. Ideas of what a Hindu is have changed from when in the Vedas there was stated that "there is only One God but his names are many" to the present creation of thousands of sects that believe different things (polytheism, monotheism, atheism, etc.). Same with Sikhi, when Udasis like Baba Chand ji (son of Guru Nanak Dev ji) were known as the propagators of Sikhism while still maintaing, what we would call today, Hindu yogi customs and rituals to the modern Sikh identity, one that tries to move as far away from Hindu association as possible. These changes have a great history to them. They have pros and cons to them. It is our duty to understand the changing aspects of our cultures but also the Eternal part of them. The part that remains true for centuries. That is Sat. That Sat should ream Akal, and live forever.
As for Punjab and all the people we have lost through politics of sectarian separation, I just want to remind my Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, and whatever other Brothers and Sisters:
"bahey jeena di pakdiye, sir deejiye per bahey na choriye"-Guru Tegh Bahadur
You may have forgot me, but I cannot forget you. peace.
Varun, I am pleased to have read what you wrote. And concerning Stage Bhangra...yeah it was obviously modernized...but we are talking about the modernization of stage bhangra here. Stage Bhangra has been modernized by speed, and certain minor twists and tweaks from various regions (Sadhar Bhangra and Patiala Bhangra). But you can't or let me say you SHOULDN'T twist it so much as to take away from its roots. The 70's was the beginning of stunts in Bhangra (dadoo- turtle stunts and what not) but these stunts are still there and its not that you cant pickup people on shoulders and what not but its more about the MOVES. People are making up their own steps, fighting over routines (copying), bringing kids on stage, using hip hop moves- that is not bhangra. Whether you want to compare it to the Bhangra before partition or after.
As for Sikhi and Punjab. Sikhs have their grievances and they are real and they need to be addressed. You can write very well, but it still does not mask the thousands dead. One can make the argument that innocent Hindus were murdered, but who is ready to believe the Indian Governments hand in killing innocent Hindus. The separatist movement was supported by EVERYONE. This is a fact- and with the Government seeing the huge support infiltrated the freedom fighting factions and many began killing Hindus and Sikhs to make the "munde" look bad. I have a hard time typing all this, it becomes too much information and begins to become an argument of facts.
I like what you said- you are well informed and it is good to see that people are still both sensible and knowledgeable.
As for Sikhi and Punjab. Sikhs have their grievances and they are real and they need to be addressed. You can write very well, but it still does not mask the thousands dead. One can make the argument that innocent Hindus were murdered, but who is ready to believe the Indian Governments hand in killing innocent Hindus. The separatist movement was supported by EVERYONE. This is a fact- and with the Government seeing the huge support infiltrated the freedom fighting factions and many began killing Hindus and Sikhs to make the "munde" look bad. I have a hard time typing all this, it becomes too much information and begins to become an argument of facts.
I like what you said- you are well informed and it is good to see that people are still both sensible and knowledgeable.
Jasjit,
I have nothing more to say, I'm happy that you can cut,copy and paste a wikipedia page... I hope that all of your friends are Sikhs, and the ones that are not, please do tell them everything you've spit on here... [redacted] Going by your theory, I should hate all muslims because of what their extremists continue to do to India, but I got love for all man... [redacted]
Moderator's Note: Heated Conversation. Establish your points, watch the respect.
I have nothing more to say, I'm happy that you can cut,copy and paste a wikipedia page... I hope that all of your friends are Sikhs, and the ones that are not, please do tell them everything you've spit on here... [redacted] Going by your theory, I should hate all muslims because of what their extremists continue to do to India, but I got love for all man... [redacted]
Moderator's Note: Heated Conversation. Establish your points, watch the respect.
campy614
New Member
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How did we get on the topic of genocide and Khalistan anyway? Ok I'm skipping that. And I'm skipping the modern bhangra bashing... I'm over it.
Harman, I actually agree with you. I, like Kinnell, spend hours and hours and hours talking to people and having them translate songs/using a Punjabi-English dictionary (p.s. Kinnell, which one do you use?) in order to choreo based on lyrics. I want a judge who is fair and is going to be able to pick up on my work.
I don't feel that it takes a Punjabi to be a good captain (which is not your original argument, but I just felt like stating my opinion) It takes drive, experience, and a lot of work... and that's if you're actually Punjabi. I think if you're not Punjabi, but you have a good amount of experience, you put in the effort to translate (or torture your friends), make good choreo, and treat your fellow dancers well-you can pull it off. It just takes a lot more work for us.
And yes, I'm a non-Punjabi who's not only involved in the bhangra circuit, but also throwing a competition. Ooops, oh my!
Harman, I actually agree with you. I, like Kinnell, spend hours and hours and hours talking to people and having them translate songs/using a Punjabi-English dictionary (p.s. Kinnell, which one do you use?) in order to choreo based on lyrics. I want a judge who is fair and is going to be able to pick up on my work.
I don't feel that it takes a Punjabi to be a good captain (which is not your original argument, but I just felt like stating my opinion) It takes drive, experience, and a lot of work... and that's if you're actually Punjabi. I think if you're not Punjabi, but you have a good amount of experience, you put in the effort to translate (or torture your friends), make good choreo, and treat your fellow dancers well-you can pull it off. It just takes a lot more work for us.
And yes, I'm a non-Punjabi who's not only involved in the bhangra circuit, but also throwing a competition. Ooops, oh my!
Nowhere did I hate on any religious group, I simply stated the facts and why some if not many of those who are informed of the history may not call themselves proud Indians either. Sikhs have an identity and we can be proud to be just that, as a matter of fact- Sikhs. Speaking about Punjab i touched upon its demographic makeup of Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims but contrary to your original argument I WASN'T SAYING PUNJABI ISN'T INDIAN. I SAID PUNJAB IS IN INDIA AND PAKISTAN its not EITHER's. And with my family background from both nations I don't want to pick and choose I do know however, that Punjab is Punjab whether east or west. From there we talked about Khalistan and how it was not just a Sikh issue but also an issue for all Punjabis in which Hindus and Sikhs agreed with the separatist movement when it began. Learn your history- read some books you'd be stupid if you think I get this information off of Wikipedia. I have friends who are atheist, Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, christian, Jain...you name it. And each one understands the plight and struggles of the Sikhs because as friends they have learned to listen to deep conversation of someone who is really touched by such a topic. I have given presentations, lectures on Punjab. I have written papers upon papers in the University discussing Punjab and its issues. Punjab is unfortunate for its need of India, it would not sustain it self I understand that. But as a people who have been raped, killed, scripture torched I think I speak on some people who may agree with me and that is to not speak when you have no knowledge of the topic. Biggest tenant of Sikhism is to respect all religions and I truly do. But when someone threatens your way of life, your people your religion you are allowed to stand up and defend it. I can not be a proud Indian, because I don't feel a damn thing when I see the Taranga. But when my eyes glance at the Nishan Sahib I get a feeling unexplainable to the common man. Separate Punjab or not...I am a proud Sikh and a proud Punjabi and will be forever.
Whoever knows me, knows how much I care for anybody regardless of religion- so don't ever try to call me some religious hater again.
Whoever knows me, knows how much I care for anybody regardless of religion- so don't ever try to call me some religious hater again.
You can say whatever you want to anyone you want... I don't know who you gave those presentations too, but I can almost guarentee that most of your audience was either 1) All punjabi, or 2) All non-Indians... I'm not stupid, this a forum, you can preach whatever the hell you want on here and show how much pride you have for this and that, you can come across as intelligent as well as someone who will say whatever is on there mind at anytime, but when you talk to people in person, things change... You are a fake, because like I said before, if you speak this nonsense in front of normal, sane, down to earth people, they would have enlightened you a little bit by now... When preaching to your own, it's very easy... I won't lie, I dont know that much about the history between Indians and Sikhs, what I do know is that it has been rocky at times, but even if I were Punjabi I would never consider it an insult to be called an Indian... If India cuts Punjab off today, your land/area/ whatever the hell you want to call it, will cease to exist... You seem to have some knowledge of the past, but most of your thoughts seem to come from an uncle of yours that sat you down one day and told you why you should hate India... To each is their own, I know people like you exist in society, hopefully someday puberty kicks in and you grow up to see the bigger picture...
Again Vick, you mention Punjab and then say India. More of it lies in Pakistan...my audience has been Desi. hows that? Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, Punjabi 
. Calm down Vick, I'm not the only one here who thinks like this- maybe you're the crazy one who doesn't understand things.
. Calm down Vick, I'm not the only one here who thinks like this- maybe you're the crazy one who doesn't understand things.- Status