Re: Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life

[Meistro]

im surprised at how many pro-choice people are on here. Interesting.....

 

[dheerja]

im surprised at how many pro-choice people are on here. Interesting.....

Why are you surprised?

 

[Meistro]

im surprised at how many pro-choice people are on here. Interesting.....

Why are you surprised?

I dunno, it just is. With respect to everyone who is pro-choice and the beliefs that follow, I don't understand how it can be so widely accepted. Especially with reference to cultural and religious beliefs. Thats just me.

 

[dheerja]

im surprised at how many pro-choice people are on here. Interesting.....

Why are you surprised?

I dunno, it just is. With respect to everyone who is pro-choice and the beliefs that follow, I don't understand how it can be so widely accepted. Especially with reference to cultural and religious beliefs. Thats just me.

Can you explain your reasoning?

 

[Meistro]

There's no difference between aborting a fetus and the female infanticide thats happening in india right now. If you choose to fornicate, you're signing that dotted line saying that you're accepting full responsibility and consequences. Keeping the kid, is courage and accepting responsibility for your actions. Aborting it, is a cop out. Im not sitting here with a gun shooting people and if I kill someone, say, "Oh but I didn't MEAN to kill him". Same with intercourse; you cant just do it, and then when you're pregnant, say "Oh but I didn't WANT to have the kid" now im gonna kill it. Whether you mean to have it or not, you're bringing life into this world. Act accordingly. I know this is all a bit on the surface and there are MANY stipulations as when it might be acceptable. But in general, That would be my view on this issue.

 

[dheerja]

Alright before we get into this debate, let's try to keep this respectful. This is something I feel passionately about, but I do respect your right to an opposing view.

There's no difference between aborting a fetus and the female infanticide thats happening in india right now.

You're equating the life of a live infant to that of an undeveloped fetus, often only a week or two old. I can't agree with that comparison.

I have a lot to say about the rest of what you said, but I'm more interested in your reference to religious and cultural beliefs. Did you mean beliefs specific to the South Asian community?

 

[Meistro]

Alright before we get into this debate, let's try to keep this respectful. This is something I feel passionately about, but I do respect your right to an opposing view.

There's no difference between aborting a fetus and the female infanticide thats happening in india right now.

You're equating the life of a live infant to that of an undeveloped fetus, often only a week or two old. I can't agree with that comparison.

I have a lot to say about the rest of what you said, but I'm more interested in your reference to religious and cultural beliefs. Did you mean beliefs specific to the South Asian community?

Yes, my bad I was referring to the South Asian community. In reference to my comparison, I believe it is valid. No matter what stage you are in, during the process of birth or when you are born, everyone has a right to live. Now, I know this might not be outlined in government policies, or laws, but again these are just my personal beliefs. When we are developing in our mother's womb, we are making a promise to God that we will remember him on a daily basis when we enter the world. We are nobody to get in between the seed and God. We get but one chance in the cycle of life, to be human. Also, this might sound stupid, but I myself wouldn`t be too happy to know that my fetus was aborted. Life is precious, and it is ridiculous to know that it can be lost before you even have it, just because of someone`s irresponsible ``mistake``. But then again, the person who aborts the fetus will live with it on their conscience for the rest of their life. That is probably one of life`s biggest punishments. To know you killed something. I understand there are those who do not believe this, and others who do not believe in God or religion as a whole. But again, they are my personal opinions.

 

[Pooja]

two qualms about your statement meistro...which you may or may not have thought of already...

Rape. How do you justify pro life when the situation is rape? A female does not have a choice there...IE: 14 year old girl gets raped and becomes pregnant, she is in no condition to bear a child, and rightfully so given her age and maturity. What would you say to her?

Quality of Life. Would you bear a child KNOWING that he/she will live the rest of his life in poverty...famished...without shelter...because you will not be able to support them (I know this is not the case always). There are too many children already suffering because their parents are careless...

I don't always agree when people decide to have an abortion (like the points you mentioned), but I think it's important to note the nature of the situation....and I find it hard to rule the idea out completely....

 

[dheerja]

I understand that your opposition to the idea seems religion-based, so I'm not going to touch that. You have a right to that opinion.

Along with the things Pooja outlined, I have two concerns.

1) The simple fact that you are a man and can't begin to fathom the stress (emotional, physical, financial) that comes with pregnancy. A lot of your statements are broad and theoretical, and might not necessarily hold if you were placed in such a situation.

2) You're imposing your views on all women. You can personally choose to not follow through with such an operation, but this should be an individual decision.



Also, getting back to the South Asian aspect, are you implying that South Asian religious/cultural beliefs are inherently anti-abortion?

 

[Meistro]

two qualms about your statement meistro...which you may or may not have thought of already...

Rape. How do you justify pro life when the situation is rape? A female does not have a choice there...IE: 14 year old girl gets raped and becomes pregnant, she is in no condition to bear a child, and rightfully so given her age and maturity. What would you say to her?

Quality of Life. Would you bear a child KNOWING that he/she will live the rest of his life in poverty...famished...without shelter...because you will not be able to support them (I know this is not the case always). There are too many children already suffering because their parents are careless...

I don't always agree when people decide to have an abortion (like the points you mentioned), but I think it's important to note the nature of the situation....and I find it hard to rule the idea out completely....

Pooja, I completely agree with you, which is why in my initial post about this, I stated that, because of the fact that I did not go into too much detail with thoughts, I was just writing about my overall feelings about this topic.

I know this is all a bit on the surface and there are MANY stipulations as when it might be acceptable

. I totally understand what you`re saying about rape. Again, because of someone`s irresponsible ``mistake``, nobody should lose a chance at life. Sure the family might not be able to support the baby, theres no doubt in my mind that there are situations like that, but there are so many support service you can turn to for that. Foster care, etc

 

[Arjun Barua]

BBC user comments on the subject:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/caribbean/news/story/2008/02/080212_abortionfforum.shtml

 

[Summy]

raab dey kirpaa tay I checked BTF after so long, and this convo comes up.

Excuse my passion if people take it the wrong way. It continues to boggle my mind how anyone in the world could support pro-choice, I never seem to understand their thinking. Meistro paa gave the logical argument to what is happening. Pooja gave the isolationist argument of what happens in the case of rape, lets evaluate all of these, starting with the abortion in South Asian culture.

Developmentaly, historically, and even logically, South Asia's culture is defantly curbed and heavily influenced by religion. I take the stance that fetus is life. Lets look at it religiously, and start with the most dominant religion in South Asia hinduism. Hinduism is distinctly opposed to abortion. The fetus is part of the atma. A living entity starts from conception, when the bodily form is given. Every human being should understand, those who believe birth constitutes life, forget that the body is forever developing. From the fetus, till death, the body never stops. Why birth has been giving an false sense of grandeur in the sense that it vindicates life is beyond me. The argument used is by some pro choice say that well the mind isnt developed fully, neither is the heart. What about when pre mature babies are born? They are not developed. We are never fuly developed physically nor spirtually.

Dharmic thought shows, even in sikhi we believe this also that, there are 16 sanskaars. Sanskaars are 16 parts of the cycle of life. The first sanskar is pre-birth, which means a fetus. Sikhs believe in sanskaars as well. If you look at the religions of South Asia, which does dominate cultural influence, then yes south asian culture does oppose abortion. HOWEVER, WHAT IS PRACTICED IS COMPLETLY DIFFERENT. As you guys know female infacticide is something I feel strong about. History will show you that throughout the 18th centuary and beyond, abortion was punishable with death, never mind the killing of young daughters in South Asia.


Dheerja, sweetheart, lets talk for a second. Are you implying simply because we posses testicales there is no way we can possibly understand the emotional, physical and other affects of pregnancy. First off, that is horrendously offensive to those women/ men who feel very strongly about this issue. Second of all, just because we cannot become pregnant does not imply we cannot feel the emotionality involved with pregnancy. Thats a huge stretch of logic, very isolationist in thinking, and very very very basic.

THe death of a fetus should not be jusitifed with the lack of state responisbility. IN the cases of rape, in the cases of unwanted pregnancy, it is the state's obligation to provide, emotional, physicial and finicial support to those who require it. If someone is raped, simply killing it because it is unwanted is not waranted. Yes a child will have to go through pregancy, yes the emotionality involved is great, yes, they will be giving birth to something they feel very hurtful about, but murder is not the answer. The state should provide, firstly, 1) psychological help to the upmost degree, 2) finicial help, and any other assistance. KIlling something UNWANTED can defintely lead us down the wrong path. Even as someone who believes that an atma is born at conception, I am willing to make a sacrifice, is cases that are proven to be rape, that abortion is justified, there are a lot of other circumstances involved, but thats the basis

Dheerja, there absolutely no difference between a fetus one or two weeks old, to a born baby. Are you saying because one is developed and one is not? Then could it be justified to kill a 5 year old, because compared to a 50 year old, they are not developed as well. Religiously, culturally, which ever way you put it, the body is always developing.



Please do not get it confused, life is precious. Life is a gift, even those born under certain circumstances, murder is murder, regardless of how big or how developed something is.

 

[kinnell]

I totally understand what you`re saying about rape. Again, because of someone`s irresponsible ``mistake``, nobody should lose a chance at life. Sure the family might not be able to support the baby, theres no doubt in my mind that there are situations like that, but there are so many support service you can turn to for that. Foster care, etc

Nobody? No, Shanjeet, we don't know that yet. We are not sure whether an unborn fetus is life at all. It definitely could be, but at the same time, it may not be life at all. Yes, there is a huge debate about when life starts, but until that debate is settled, we cannot say for sure that the act is murder or not.

Yes, it may be better not to do something that may involve the death of human life, but as you said there are many situations that may merit abortion. And yes, there are situations that may not be worth the risk that you might be killing human life. But as of now, we cannot say for sure.

 

[Summy]

Kinnell, what do you think life is? In many peoples eyes it is abundantly clear that conception is life. WHy are you saying there is something left to be proven?

Is birth for you life? Explain the ambigouity that lies in what life is...

 

[Saleem]

Dheerja, there absolutely no difference between a fetus one or two weeks old, to a born baby.

Please do not get it confused, life is precious. Life is a gift, even those born under certain circumstances, murder is murder, regardless of how big or how developed something is.

Disclaimer: I'm at work and haven't gone through the full thread and its points yet. Hopefully will tonight.

Here is an interesting question I came across, though. Many pro-life debaters will say that life starts at fertilization (and so even birth control pills, which prevent implantation of the embryo, are murderous and should be illegal). Many with religious backing to their argument will say that at that point, it is the same as a baby and has a "soul".

So we come across an interesting dilemma when a week old zygote (a clump of cells by some measure), splits into two (monozygotic identical twins). Or this split may occur much later, causing conjoined twins. What is the mathematics of souls here? If life starts at conception, is another soul created at split? Certainly they don't share a soul. Which is the original soul? Are they not equal?

Kinnell, what do you think life is? In many peoples eyes it is abundantly clear that conception is life. WHy are you saying there is something left to be proven?

Is birth for you life? Explain the ambigouity that lies in what life is...

Summy there is plenty of debate about what constitutes life, that is really the heart of the debate. Why are three cells with the _potential_ to become a baby equivalent to a human life? Some would argue life starts at conception, or at implantation, or when a heartbeat starts (i believe 3 weeks in). Very few propose abortion should be legal up until the expected day of birth.

If the fertilized egg is a life and equal to a baby, as you said, there should be no exceptions to abortion, no? Even in terms of rape. (I see that you are willing to make that sacrifice to allow abortion here, but in its logical extremes, it shouldn't be allowed here either) What gives the State the ability to kill an innocent life (not one of a murderer or someone duly convicted).

 

[HarmanSingh]

I have to agree with Summy. This is an extremely complex and meaningful decision that no woman should have to make, but to say that a man is incapable of understanding the importance of this decision is absurd. It is not as if I am sitting here saying women have abortions for fun, but that it is a difficult choice that requires a lot of thought and soul searching. Following your logic Dheerja, you don?t know either unless you have been pregnant, so I guess no one should be able to speak but women who have had abortions.

I think most conversations about this are completely fruitless because you have people calling women who have been raped and have an abortion filthy sluts/murderers and you have pro-choice people calling pro-life people sexist hypocrites. I wish people would understand this thing is not black and white. There is a lot of grey area to be discussed and it is important the name calling and condescending nature in which most politicians speak would be stopped.

I agree with Summy in that, although it is extremely difficult to say, rape victims should not be allowed to have an abortion but should receive government sponsored psychological and financial aid for themselves and their family. Now, this may be unrealistic as rape victims are often reluctant to talk about the assault and even more reluctant to ask for help, but ideally the state would provide services to these women. But on the other hand, a woman who has an abortion cannot and does not simply have the abortion and walk away from it with no emotional or spiritual effects. So sure, the rape victim can have an abortion, but her problems are def. not ending there. The key is support for the woman.

?Quality of Life. Would you bear a child KNOWING that he/she will live the rest of his life in poverty...famished...without shelter...because you will not be able to support them (I know this is not the case always). There are too many children already suffering because their parents are careless.? ? While this is a valid point Pooja, where do you draw the line? How much money is enough money for the woman to have to give birth? Following this logic, do you also support the state castrating homeless males so they don?t impregnate women and have children they cant talk care of? Or how about having all parents submit their financial records before conceiving a baby?

Summy, I do disagree with you about the conception of life debate. It is important to talk about that because it is the crux of this debate in many ways, as pro-choice people argue a fetus has no soul, as it is not ?life?, while pro-life argue the counter.

 

[Summy]

Saleem, it might be hard to understand the legistics of an atma when you are taught in islam that it doesnt exist, but religiously, the argument is that the atma is granted not made. In the case of a split cell then yes the atma is two. Those who create a cell for the prupose of death, the atma may not be existant. To clarify, I mean, religiously Waheguru blesses the cells or the atmas that will continue on to life. So the human doesnt make a atma simply by making a cell, but it involves the divine plan of god that grants atmas. Even islam believes against abortion until I believe it is the second trimester.

The heart of debate lies with who believe there is a struggle for opinion. There is no debate in many peoples eyes. The body goes through more changes when born then the semesters. The body becomes more fully developed after birth then in the womb. After a certain semester, the fetus can survive externally.

IF you can justify the death of a fetus or what have you by arguing that it isnt develop, why cant we justify death before puberty? Why isnt female infacticide legal? After that is a choice as well.

For the feminists who are up in arms with the possiblity of no choice, I bet they would feel different if the abortion was solely on the basis of sex. Meaning, how would pro choice people feel is we could kill babies only on the basis of sex. Or the basis of skin colour. Why not build an aryan race, no interracial babies. No babies of mix religions. Pro-choice is the basis of when they should keep the baby under what circumstances. That power is easily abused, as seen in South Asia.

Pro-choice has the ability to be abused. In my opinion, your right, I dont think even in rape cases abortion should happen. If you provide a stable state environment, then families who are in dire need to have a baby could be provided for one. But for people of pro choice to use the extremist argument of rape babies, in order to statify their quarells, I am willing to accept abortion in certain cases.

If you look at ancient greek civilizations, unwanted babies were actually a gift from god. Those who chose to donate the baby to the state, believed that those babies were destined to live for humanity. The state believed that had an obligation to provide those babies with stable up bringings. If you have the same compassion for each and every soul, then you can see how with the right intiatives, unwanted births can be harvested for positive outcomes.

I dont believe in the killing of a soul period. Be it animal, fetus etc... You cant convince one religiously esepcially those of dharmic religions, so those who are pro choice tend to use ambigouity, and extreme situation to prove their arguments, but I am willing to discuss. Not saying that there is no validity in the pro choice side, but not to the extent people believe.

 

[Meistro]

I totally understand what you`re saying about rape. Again, because of someone`s irresponsible ``mistake``, nobody should lose a chance at life. Sure the family might not be able to support the baby, theres no doubt in my mind that there are situations like that, but there are so many support service you can turn to for that. Foster care, etc

Nobody? No, Shanjeet, we don't know that yet. We are not sure whether an unborn fetus is life at all. It definitely could be, but at the same time, it may not be life at all. Yes, there is a huge debate about when life starts, but until that debate is settled, we cannot say for sure that the act is murder or not.

Yes, it may be better not to do something that may involve the death of human life, but as you said there are many situations that may merit abortion. And yes, there are situations that may not be worth the risk that you might be killing human life. But as of now, we cannot say for sure.

Kinnell, bro, it seems to me that this argument is quite skewed. The reason why we are disagreeing is because we are all looking into the topic from different perspectives whether it be scientic, spiritual, or emotion. There is nothing wrong with this. Everyone is going to look at the issue differently; it is a given. However, my goal is for those who don`t look at it from my perspective, to at least understand as I am attempting look at it from yours.

You mentioned that we do not have knowledge as to whether an unborn fetus is alive. This is true, however, whether it is alive or not, developed or undeveloped, an unborn fetus is still a vital part in the birth cycle. Does make it alright to abort something that isnt alive? I mean this is an something that will be within a matter of months! You also said that there are situations that are not worth risking as you COULD BE killing a life. So then why are abortions still carried out? We have no idea whether the fetus is a living thing. So until we are 100% sure, it is OK to do an abortion because we're NOT SURE if it is alive? That makes so sense to me at all. Is it ethical to abort something that could be a living, breathing human being?

Also, isnt it so ironic, that in the case of rape, the helpless fetus is aborted because it is an unwanted mistake, yet the life of the individual who commits rape, is spared and does some time?

Dheerja, I agree with summy in that your statement was quite offensive. Lets say hypothetically a couple had protected intercourse, yet the contraception failed. The woman doesn't want to have the baby, but the man does. Are you telling me that the man won't feel an emotional attachment to the unborn child? He is the one who will most likeley bare most of the financial responsibility. I believe that he deserves equal say in whether the child is born or not as without him, we wouldnt be having this discussion. Like I said before, when you choose to have intercourse, protected or unprotected, you are assuming responsibility for the consequences. Rape is a totally different topic because there are many things that can be said about that. Lets narrows this discussion down to just healthy, normal intercourse in which the woman unexpectedly becomes pregnant. It is quite surprising and offensive at the same time that someone with so much passion for this topic would be so narrow-minded. No offense to you personally.

 

[dheerja]

Alright I just want to clarify what I meant by the male comment. I was trying to make the point that you can hold your personal opinions, whether they be religiously motivated or otherwise, but you cannot impose those on all women. You personally can choose to not have an abortion, but this should be a choice that is up to the individual/woman.

Clearly we disagree on the status of a fetus as a being. I personally think that a woman's right to her body trumps that of a 1-2 week old fetus.

I tried avoiding this because I know a lot of you hold opinions that are religiously rooted, thus we will never come to an agreement. The one thing I want to point out is the rape question. Yes a rape victim can give up the child for adoption, etc. immediately after birth, but the emotional trauma of carrying that child for 9 months is something no woman should ever endure.

 

[Saleem]

Saleem, it might be hard to understand the legistics of an atma when you are taught in islam that it doesnt exist, but religiously, the argument is that the atma is granted not made.

Summy, I'm not sure what you've read about Islam, but a core tenet of Islam is belief in a 'soul' (or 'atma', translated), something that transcends this world, which is fleeting.

The heart of debate lies with who believe there is a struggle for opinion. There is no debate in many peoples eyes.

This is the definition of a debate between two sides: each sees their opinion as correct.

Pro-choice has the ability to be abused.

Indeed it does, but that doesn't mean it's not right. Guns may be abused, alcohol may be abused, the INTERNET may be abused, but are any of these things outlawed? No, they are controlled and regulated, as abortion should be.

Yes a rape victim can give up the child for adoption, etc. immediately after birth, but the emotional trauma of carrying that child for 9 months is something no woman should ever endure.

100% agreed, terrible emotional, psychological, and physical trauma.