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Re: Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life
- Thread starter Meistro
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Weak. I respect Summy's opinion even though it may differ from mine. Summy brings up a lot of good points even in other topics. It's not wasting time and its not fair to single him out just because his perspective is different from the majority.neilD said:
neilD
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Not really weak. He is actually pretty offensive and arrogant when he replies to people. He assumes things about them, accuses them of not following their religion in the correct way, and his arguments tend to be filled with so many debatable subjects and flaws that it is pretty much impossible to respond to all of them. And, his opinion represents the opinion of many many others, but the way he goes about it, the stubborness, the anger, is kind of disturbing.
Summy
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Sounds like a personal problem, get over it. Nobody cares how you personally feel or take it, im not your mom, I could care less about your feelings. Look at the arguments and the points raised and think about that, I am not going to wrap it in sugarcane and pixie dust for people who think that I have some sort of feeling towards them. Get over it sweetheart, write an entry in your journal or something, I really, honestly don't care. If you think my opinions have so many flaws, have the belief in your own opinions to stand up and debate one of them, or like I said, ask for affirmation somewhere else.neilD said:
Kinnell, I understand those who have had discussions and talk to each other, and have learned understand each other's points of views and respect them. Thats why we have has discussions and will continue to have ones in which we will mutually benefit. Those who live in an isolated world, and stare in the mirror and ask, why doesnt everyone love me, yeah maybe they will have a problem with the way I write stuff.
I am sorry the last time I checked, I thought we were in the real world. Imagine if somebody had points of view, and opinions in some educated forum, and some person says "he is arrogrant, he demeans me"... people would laugh at you for bringing up something as stupid as your own personal feelings. Get over them. Imgaine if the Obama campaign ran with the statement of Sarah Palin is arrogrant, mean and is stubborn.haha, grow up what world are you living in that you think I am going to cater to how YOU want to hear something. Listen to my points, debate them, and get over yourself.
Sher Foundation
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I know this thread has died down a bit but heres some food for thought to help out those who support pro choice:
GENERALLY speaking, pro-life is definitely the way to go. But I have a few problems that cannot be fixed easily in regards to anti abortion (once again playing devil?s advocate here). First, a lot of people talk more and do little. You can get millions of people lined up that are pro life, but how many of those people would actually put their time and money where their mouth is to help out these females go through the pregnancy, help them financially and emotionally to raise the child until he/she turns 18???? Im pretty sure we can conclude that only a fraction of those millions who speak would follow through ? a very small fraction. Yes there are help centers out there, crisis pregnancy centers, etc. but none of them will go as far as what seems to be a reasonable asking price for giving birth to an unwanted child.
Another concern with pro-life is the abuse of those unwanted children. Lets say we do end up forcing those people to give birth to their child and go through with the pregnancy and somehow gather enough funds by some miracle to support the child till he reaches 18, its really easy to imagine a mother who chooses to keep this child instead of giving up the child to authorities at birth, abusing him for a while before it finally comes in light of the government (phew huge run on sentence). This is not an impossible thought at all. Although such an instance would not be a common occurrence, Im sure a partial percentage of the child abuse rate belongs to those children that are the result of an unwanted pregnancy.
These concerns against pro life relates to a very minuscule percentage of people but if you are a hard core anti abortionist, then every life and abuse case should matter.
GENERALLY speaking, pro-life is definitely the way to go. But I have a few problems that cannot be fixed easily in regards to anti abortion (once again playing devil?s advocate here). First, a lot of people talk more and do little. You can get millions of people lined up that are pro life, but how many of those people would actually put their time and money where their mouth is to help out these females go through the pregnancy, help them financially and emotionally to raise the child until he/she turns 18???? Im pretty sure we can conclude that only a fraction of those millions who speak would follow through ? a very small fraction. Yes there are help centers out there, crisis pregnancy centers, etc. but none of them will go as far as what seems to be a reasonable asking price for giving birth to an unwanted child.
Another concern with pro-life is the abuse of those unwanted children. Lets say we do end up forcing those people to give birth to their child and go through with the pregnancy and somehow gather enough funds by some miracle to support the child till he reaches 18, its really easy to imagine a mother who chooses to keep this child instead of giving up the child to authorities at birth, abusing him for a while before it finally comes in light of the government (phew huge run on sentence). This is not an impossible thought at all. Although such an instance would not be a common occurrence, Im sure a partial percentage of the child abuse rate belongs to those children that are the result of an unwanted pregnancy.
These concerns against pro life relates to a very minuscule percentage of people but if you are a hard core anti abortionist, then every life and abuse case should matter.
ok i came to this thread a little late, and im not going to lie i didnt read the whole thing, just most of the first page and i strongly disagree with some things that were said. I think to live in america, based on the principles of this nation, i am strongly pro-choice. That is not to say that I think abortion is right/wrong on a personal level. It is way too complex an issue and I really dont know how I feel about it except to say that in the case of rape and other sex crimes I believe a woman should absolutely have the right to an abortion. Anyways, the reason i am pro-choice is that no matter what your personal feeling is on the matter, it is not your choice to make for another person. If you think that person is going to hell or whatever you may personally believe for doing so, then that is fine, but you cannot tell them what to do. I find it hilarious that the republican party, who is all about personal freedom and doign whatever you want and small government regulation is all about government control in this respect.
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Summy, allow me to paraphrase your points to see how easily they prove ours, please see my edits and see how accurate they are to the discussion:
Although it's always possible to be nicer in the world and on BTF, I completely understand most of what Hans said below.
Look below at the statements you presented as fact. How would the 4+ billion people in the world who are not of your religion or culture agree with these statements of "fact"? As strongly as you believe the statements below (I do not doubt that), it does not make them factual statements. They are beliefs, unprovable.
After this I will just be repeating myself again and again, so this will likely be my last post on this topic.
Summy said:
Although it's always possible to be nicer in the world and on BTF, I completely understand most of what Hans said below.
We have presented plenty of logic about why you cannot hard-as-factually say that Life begins at conception, and your only rebuttals have been based on what you morally feel in your gut as a gursikh. What if someone else's religion says Life begins at the heartbeat? Hans is right that whatever we say, you then say things like "Faith can be fact" (it cannot be) and demean our entire viewpoint as skewed by Western Ideology (welcome to half the world's population).Hans said:
Look below at the statements you presented as fact. How would the 4+ billion people in the world who are not of your religion or culture agree with these statements of "fact"? As strongly as you believe the statements below (I do not doubt that), it does not make them factual statements. They are beliefs, unprovable.
Hans is right that this is futile if even my statements above do not get to you. Your beliefs are fine, but you cannot pass them as facts that are unquestionable.Summy said:
After this I will just be repeating myself again and again, so this will likely be my last post on this topic.
Summy
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Saleem, the way that I pharse my statements doesnt imply I force my beliefs on to you. I feel that the problem with many people is that they selectivity choose what they take to heart. If your trying to argue that abortion isnt a black and white issue, god bless you... I dont think one person would think otherwise.
The only, I REPEAT ONLY REASON I TALKED ABOUT RELIGION AND ABORTION, is because dheerja posed the question if south asia's culture is inheritly anti abortion. Obviously as a gursikh, im not going to go to a person of a different faith and say HEY BUDDY, THE FETUS HAS A SOUL and therefore I AM ANTI ABORTION... No, I say that to other people like Dheerja, who quesitoned the religious and cultural aspect of abortion.
My anti abortion stance comes solely from the purpose of the abuse of abortion than can happen. This stance is independent of religion. I believe life begins at conception, whether it is because I believe a soul or not, is not the issue. You can debate all day when a life begins, and religiously and culturally because the conversation went that way, I gave my justifications on those basis. I am not debating when life begins, I gave MY PERSONAL opinions via religion for that, I am not forcing other people to inherently accept that....
What I AM DEBATING is that even if you think life begins at conception or at birth or whatever have you.... The problem with abortion is its abuse of power. THAT IS WHAT I AM DEBATING... Religion, culture and other aspects are not my justifications for why I am against abortion... Personally, they contribute to that, but they are not reasons I would use as a defense, because religions, cultures and mindsets do vary.........
I havent demeaned anyone's faith, because I didnt claim anyones faith is superior in this discussion, that is foolish. My faith was brought up for the purpose of a sub topic which was South Asia culture/religious influence in abortion. So that parapharse is a little too optimistic as far as what you are trying to claim
The problem I had with Hans is forcing the supeirority of science and saying nothing is proven sceintifically, so it is fruitless to argue, as if the majority of the world is waiting for western dervived scientific theories to explain their own beliefs. People have religion that will forever for them trump any scientific discovery... So for him to say, FOR A GURSIKH who may have no alligence to science, to wait and see for the "FACTS" to come out, which apperently depend purely on science (as the ONLY objective measure as he put it) again, is HIGHLY problematic. You ask the question WHAT AUTHORITY/ FACT???? That is dependent on the individual. I SAY SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO RELIGION SAY THE FACT TO ME IS MY RELIGIOUS BOOK... You argue thats not fact, because its not conclusive, you need a leap of faith... I say, TO YOU, it is not conclusive, dont put thoughts into other peoples head, and dont question religion if this is the closet thing to fact people feel... He said along the lines that science is factual... To whom?
I hope people know how easily science is manipulated. People think western science is independent of christan ideals... WRONG. If you tell an indian trained chiropractor, that the bones of the back and how you cure certain health problem, and not the shakra, because those dont exist int he west, youll get different opinions. Science itself is not independent of religious influence. Its basis is not independent of religious influence.
I never said my religious beliefs were facts. I said that ARE FACTUAL to people, and they can be. To you and to others, they may require a leap of "faith", but to others, they are as concrete as science appears to you.
NObody is saying there is a right and wrong, what I am saying is that, his criteria for what we need to order to settle this argument is HIGHLY HIGHY PROBLEMATIC
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Few other thoughts to Sher Foundation:
I think sher foundation you bring up good points however, I dont believe the government's lack of action, and proper care, is a good excuse to abort. I mean if you feel that, hmmm if government did provide stable upbringings, and did provide incentives for adoption, and did do things to further the life of unwated babies, then thats your view. Your feelings shouldnt be contingent on how the current day government is handling things.
obviously there is something wrong with the system, it needs to be fixed. But a broken system is not a justification for abortion in my eyes. There needs to be things fixed before we can fully adopt a pro life policy.
MY SOLE PROBLEM WITH ABORTION is the abuse of abortion. Thats what I have a problem with. The fact that people can abort for less than good reasons. For race, for religion, because they may be forced by a family member. I mean, how many people would keep their kid if they were sure the govenrment would provide their family and the kid with a stable envrionment. That rape victims would be given the help they need emotionally, mentally and physically.
If someone could assure me that abortion would never be abused, then other than my religious reaons, I would be fine with aborting.
The only, I REPEAT ONLY REASON I TALKED ABOUT RELIGION AND ABORTION, is because dheerja posed the question if south asia's culture is inheritly anti abortion. Obviously as a gursikh, im not going to go to a person of a different faith and say HEY BUDDY, THE FETUS HAS A SOUL and therefore I AM ANTI ABORTION... No, I say that to other people like Dheerja, who quesitoned the religious and cultural aspect of abortion.
My anti abortion stance comes solely from the purpose of the abuse of abortion than can happen. This stance is independent of religion. I believe life begins at conception, whether it is because I believe a soul or not, is not the issue. You can debate all day when a life begins, and religiously and culturally because the conversation went that way, I gave my justifications on those basis. I am not debating when life begins, I gave MY PERSONAL opinions via religion for that, I am not forcing other people to inherently accept that....
What I AM DEBATING is that even if you think life begins at conception or at birth or whatever have you.... The problem with abortion is its abuse of power. THAT IS WHAT I AM DEBATING... Religion, culture and other aspects are not my justifications for why I am against abortion... Personally, they contribute to that, but they are not reasons I would use as a defense, because religions, cultures and mindsets do vary.........
I havent demeaned anyone's faith, because I didnt claim anyones faith is superior in this discussion, that is foolish. My faith was brought up for the purpose of a sub topic which was South Asia culture/religious influence in abortion. So that parapharse is a little too optimistic as far as what you are trying to claim
The problem I had with Hans is forcing the supeirority of science and saying nothing is proven sceintifically, so it is fruitless to argue, as if the majority of the world is waiting for western dervived scientific theories to explain their own beliefs. People have religion that will forever for them trump any scientific discovery... So for him to say, FOR A GURSIKH who may have no alligence to science, to wait and see for the "FACTS" to come out, which apperently depend purely on science (as the ONLY objective measure as he put it) again, is HIGHLY problematic. You ask the question WHAT AUTHORITY/ FACT???? That is dependent on the individual. I SAY SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO RELIGION SAY THE FACT TO ME IS MY RELIGIOUS BOOK... You argue thats not fact, because its not conclusive, you need a leap of faith... I say, TO YOU, it is not conclusive, dont put thoughts into other peoples head, and dont question religion if this is the closet thing to fact people feel... He said along the lines that science is factual... To whom?
I hope people know how easily science is manipulated. People think western science is independent of christan ideals... WRONG. If you tell an indian trained chiropractor, that the bones of the back and how you cure certain health problem, and not the shakra, because those dont exist int he west, youll get different opinions. Science itself is not independent of religious influence. Its basis is not independent of religious influence.
I never said my religious beliefs were facts. I said that ARE FACTUAL to people, and they can be. To you and to others, they may require a leap of "faith", but to others, they are as concrete as science appears to you.
NObody is saying there is a right and wrong, what I am saying is that, his criteria for what we need to order to settle this argument is HIGHLY HIGHY PROBLEMATIC
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Few other thoughts to Sher Foundation:
I think sher foundation you bring up good points however, I dont believe the government's lack of action, and proper care, is a good excuse to abort. I mean if you feel that, hmmm if government did provide stable upbringings, and did provide incentives for adoption, and did do things to further the life of unwated babies, then thats your view. Your feelings shouldnt be contingent on how the current day government is handling things.
obviously there is something wrong with the system, it needs to be fixed. But a broken system is not a justification for abortion in my eyes. There needs to be things fixed before we can fully adopt a pro life policy.
MY SOLE PROBLEM WITH ABORTION is the abuse of abortion. Thats what I have a problem with. The fact that people can abort for less than good reasons. For race, for religion, because they may be forced by a family member. I mean, how many people would keep their kid if they were sure the govenrment would provide their family and the kid with a stable envrionment. That rape victims would be given the help they need emotionally, mentally and physically.
If someone could assure me that abortion would never be abused, then other than my religious reaons, I would be fine with aborting.
