Reaching Out to all **CURRENT** Dancers/Captains

[Nish Swami]

Not that I necessarily disagree with the fact that lyrics should be paid attention to, but I'd also like to point out that it's extremely difficult to find modern songs that are "wholesome." Perhaps I'm not looking at the right avenues for bhangra songs (spotify, random youtube links lol) or my translators are wrong (google/Punjabi friends), but most songs that are getting released now have elements of extreme violence, objectification of women, and alcohol and drug references. The best bet you have is to have a whole bunch of love songs, but then there's not a whole lot of diversity in terms of tempo/feel. And even then, some pretty violent stuff pops up (If anybody looks at my girl the wrong way, imma whip out my AK-47).

I agree that in an ideal world that we should definitely pay attention to the lyrics and avoid the presence of anything remotely bad, but it's hard to keep mixes current and fresh if everybody has to rely on the same few songs that actually don't involve shooting someone or something else extreme.

 

[Yesh]

While not perfect, DDN and the fusion circuit have a good grasp on the way to progress a circuit and could serve as a pretty good model. Im not saying that we should (but we definitely could) do these things, but we should definitely consider the purposes of them and how we can incorporate them to our circuit

They have a new platform (fb) rather than using a forum, which allows SO MANY PEOPLE to be a part of it. Its so easy to get everyone on your team involved in a fb group versus them registering on BTF. Easy to moderate posts, easy document sharing, easy video sharing, easy commenting, easy replies, notifications.... essentially easy everything.
BTF might have been great back in the day, but really none of its features are being used and stuff it outdated.
Also people get to know one another too by real names, not just by their BTF name which some of these trolls hide behind

They have a board that regulates said platform. This DDN board is changed every year so that its not the same people moderating year after year after year. This is fantastic as it allows the younger dancers to get involved in the circuit.
EVERYONE on their platform is supportive and constructive. I have yet to see trolls on their posts or people just shit talking for no reason. (possibly because mods can just remove those people from the fb group)
It would be cool to have a small panel like this for the bhangra circuit, comprised of current captains/dancers who ARE ACTIVE on the forums and provide good thought/discussion to improving the circuit as a whole.
***I really think mods should start removing people on BTF who consistently troll posts instead of closing threads. Closing threads is not beneficial to the circuit because I bet that thread had some good discussion and could/should be continued.

They also have a bid system for a 'nationals' which could be used as a model if its something people are interested in. This would take a tremendous amount of work, but would be awesome if it actually came to light.

They keep their circuit alive all the time with random challenges. All it takes is one person posting a video and challenging everyone else to do the same. It doesnt/shouldnt require someone else having to annoy the shit out of someone to start it. Literally, if you want a challenge ladder, MAKE A VIDEO, POST IT, AND THEN CHALLENGE OTHERS TO DO THE SAME. worst outcome is you got a dope video out that.

 

[Yesh]

As for judging, I agree with judges needing to be rotated out to give teams a variety of judges in one season. One of the most annoying and useless critiques I've gotten from judges who have been at more than one comp in the same season is when they compare your set/dancing to a previous comp OR WORSE A PREVIOUS YEAR. A good judge should be judging that one comp and should be judging that one performance against the other teams' performances, not comparing your team to your teams history...

I also think there need to be some new judges thrown into the mix. We have judges who haven't danced in years and they tend judge accordingly. Some judges are just disconnected with the circuit now and it is creating friction with teams.

I also understand comps want experienced judges, however reach out to teams and ask which judges they've had good experiences with. Just because a judge has had a ton of judging experience doesn't mean it is good experience. Instead of experienced judges, take some new judges with good dancing backgrounds/leadership backgrounds as Howie suggested.

****FOR COMPS: Stop talking about judging bias. Most people in this circuit know/are friends with others/other teams on the circuit and have danced for many teams. Give some new judges a chance, there are redundancies in place to prevent bias (aka having more than 1 or 2 judges). And if a judge is bias, call that judge out publicly (other judges should be doing the same).

 

[Nimit]

Good post Sahil. Definitely a lot of quality points.

One quick thing in defense of the judges that we all see from comp to comp. We were not a very good team for a long time (and still a ways to go) but progress for us would've been impossible without the REPEATED feedback that we got from a variety of judges (kinnell, Mariam, cherag, kuntal to name a few). They were able to see how our set had evolved and were able to point out growth points and growing pains that we might have had.

We hardly ever agree with everything they say in those meetings, but for teams like us that didn't have people to teach us from square one or have an Ustaadji that lives down the street, their feedback is really the only way to improve. They do a thankless job and I think I can attribute a lot of our recent improvement to their feedback and their viewpoints on Bhangra. So yes, comps may want to get a new judge now and then or make sure that their current lineup isn't biased against one team or another, but to say that it is useless to have a repeat judge is wasting an opportunity to improve imo.

 

[J Wong]

Applied to be a judge. Always denied. Gave up.

 

[Howie Magz]

^^You deserve to be a judge though. Also where have you been Jordan?

 

[J Wong]

^^You deserve to be a judge though. Also where have you been Jordan?

Sorry I fell off of the planet, life has been consumed by medical school.

 

[sdadoo15]

Good post Sahil. Definitely a lot of quality points.

One quick thing in defense of the judges that we all see from comp to comp. We were not a very good team for a long time (and still a ways to go) but progress for us would've been impossible without the REPEATED feedback that we got from a variety of judges (kinnell, Mariam, cherag, kuntal to name a few). They were able to see how our set had evolved and were able to point out growth points and growing pains that we might have had.

We hardly ever agree with everything they say in those meetings, but for teams like us that didn't have people to teach us from square one or have an Ustaadji that lives down the street, their feedback is really the only way to improve. They do a thankless job and I think I can attribute a lot of our recent improvement to their feedback and their viewpoints on Bhangra. So yes, comps may want to get a new judge now and then or make sure that their current lineup isn't biased against one team or another, but to say that it is useless to have a repeat judge is wasting an opportunity to improve imo.

I can agree with this. Also coming from teams with no true, as you said Ustaadji, I often find that the best critiques come from judges, BTF, and friends that you send it to. The big thing that I have found from repeat judges is that they are picked solely off of experience, and I'm trying to hit the main point that experience isn't fool-proof. There are so many people out there trying to judge, and that have learned Bhangra from a variety of different styles, so competitions need to do a better job of choosing judges that match their style.

Because while a rubric is great and all, the true hard part of judging comes during deliberation. And I often find that judge's subjectivity predominates during this deliberation, so finding judges who's styles match a rubric will allow for deliberation to more properly follow the rubric of a competition.

 

[siddyp]

I'm not going to quote everything about the judges talk, but I want to reiterate something I've said before:

It is the responsibility of the committee of the competition to have their judges judge to the rubric and deliberate based upon what is being stressed by the rubric. Judges should be using their experience and expertise to properly allocate points for performances and then deliberate based on what the competition wants and what they said they were going to do/how they were going to deliberate.

^^ this is something we as dancers should demand of the committees and judges. Keeps the playing field fair and allows judges meetings/comments to make sense of how placings came about.

 

[walkertexasjr]

Applied to be a judge. Always denied. Gave up.

As far as judging is concerned, I wish there were more qualified judges with sheer Panjabi knowledge/background. A lot of the segments, music and steps have a specific meaning behind them. Certain teams are able to show that meaning in their dance. Have you ever asked yourself why are they doing that? I usually find myself asking the same question when I see gimmicks. Some of these gimmicks are so off the wall that it ruins the rest of the set for me. But that's entirely a personal opinion of mine. Do what you want when it comes to choreographing your set. Anyway, judges should be able to understand and explain that meaning back to you in a judges meeting. Really they should be able to interpret that meaning and best advise you on how to improve on it the next time around.

as far as judging goes, i like the idea of every competition having at least one judge who has "sheer Punjabi knowledge", who can make sure that nothing ridiculously offensive is happening, but again the circuit is becoming more and more non-Punjabi. it isn't right at all to have only judges with that true Punjabi knowledge because that just isn't what the circuit is anymore. whether you like that or hate that is up to you, but that's the truth. a team shouldn't win a comp because they are "more Punjabi" in their background and song selection than another team, especially at certain comps out there (BBC, bruin, blowout). if you really don't think a song should be used (like the one mentioned above), explain to teams and let them decide.

I haven't danced in a few years, but a few of these posts really resonated with me. As a non-punjabi (to say the least) who immersed myself in bhangra for 5 years, captaining, dancing at almost 20 comps, I always thought judging would be something I would be interested in, but ultimately I never went for it. The reasons are two-fold: 1) I realized that I just didn't have enough knowledge of the Punjabi language to appreciate the full nuances of the set (something I LOVE about bhangra), and 2) I never felt like comps (or teams) would really take the advice from me as seriously as from the other judges, both because of my lack of punjabi knowledge, as well as because I wasn't as experienced/my former team wasn't as successful as some of the more established judges. Ultimately, nothing the circuit does will change #1. That's up to the individual and something that can be built up with practice and dedication.

I do think that it's possible (and in some ways prudent) to address #2. Now, I can't say I was ever denied a spot like Jordan, because I never applied, and that's on me. But I think if you asked a lot of dancers and ex-dancers in my shoes, they might say the same about the attitudes towards judging (and judges). We - as collegiate dancers, at least - tend to idolize some of these repeat judges because we've seen them dance, they've been our benchmark for form, style, etc. However, I definitely agree that the circuit could do with bringing in more and more different judges, as many as are qualified. This can only be good, and as has been said already, the circuit is becoming more diverse. That being said, the need still remains to keep the spirit and understanding of the punjabi element of bhangra alive. When someone would explain the nuances of the song lyrics coupled with the choreo to me it would blow my mind, which is something at least one or two judges need to be able to see when watching it live. The "qualified" part of the above paragraph is the sticking point unfortunately. I've been trying to figure out how to articulate this, but I think it would look something like this:

A judges training/shadowing opportunity. Recent college grads (most likely) who are interested in judging (and maybe there could be criteria for this related to years dancing, comps attended, etc, up to the organizers) can come to a comp and tag along with a more experienced judge. You get a feel for how the weekend goes, and try scoring along with the judge at the comp on your own sheet. You don't talk to teams as a judge, you just learn what it's like to be at a comp as a judge, not a dancer, and you can pick the judges brains for what they look for and compare sheets at the end. While I thought of it as a good chance for non-punjabis to gain some confidence that "hey, I can maybe do this," I think it could work well for everyone. That way the circuit can freshen up the judging pool while also giving teams the confidence that the new judges know what the deal is. Additionally, if comps would like to get applications from newer judges, advertise that. Otherwise people will stop even trying.

Established comps, new comps, I would love to see this tried out.

Side-note, living in Germany now, I miss the circuit so much. While it has its issues, many of which are being correctly and thoughtfully raised here, it exists. And for the most part, it works. Thanks Sahil for calling this State of the Bhangra Union, it's been great reading everyone's thoughts, at the very least it shows that there are still lots of people who think very hard about how to constantly improve Bhangra in North America.

 

[Prabhzy]

I definitely agree with the first poster about teams waiting a whole year to release 10 videos at the same time? Whats the point as they are all the same set. I would say instead of doing 10 comps with the same set ( which gets boring by the end ), why not target 2/3 for the year maybe 2 in autumn semester and 1 in the spring semester; and make changes to the set; new songs, variation to the segments. This will allow new teams to do more comps and we can see more variety this way.


The video thing has been my issue for a while but im glad a few people have the same line of thought!

 

[Sue Sylvester]

I can agree with this. Also coming from teams with no true, as you said Ustaadji, I often find that the best critiques come from judges, BTF, and friends that you send it to. The big thing that I have found from repeat judges is that they are picked solely off of experience, and I'm trying to hit the main point that experience isn't fool-proof. There are so many people out there trying to judge, and that have learned Bhangra from a variety of different styles, so competitions need to do a better job of choosing judges that match their style.

Because while a rubric is great and all, the true hard part of judging comes during deliberation. And I often find that judge's subjectivity predominates during this deliberation, so finding judges who's styles match a rubric will allow for deliberation to more properly follow the rubric of a competition.

Many competitions these days are run by college groups where the organizers tend to be the graduating class that year. In my experience, these individuals, while they have the best of intentions, have little to no experience dancing, competing, and judging, because they’re so busy putting on the best competition they can while still having some time left over for grieve for Harambe.

So, while these competition organizers may be able to express a very vague desire for the judges to place teams that either entertain more or alternately, showcase better bhangra dancing, they’re not specifically able to articulate the specifics that often times get discussed in deliberations that may result in the final rankings. Basically, how exactly they want the multitudes of criteria, aspects, and elements of a performance factored in and weighted against each other, compared to the other performances of the night.

For example, let’s say you have a team that is fairly synchronized but has a few mistakes versus a team that is not as synchronized but commits no mistake. What degree of synchronization are we looking at and how many mistakes constitutes overshadowing the cleaner dancing?

Perhaps, one of the teams also had a shorter routine, but it didn’t feel lacking and was more impactful, while the other one danced for longer which was admirable, but overall, was not as memorable? But they did have the best dhamaal of the night though. So, I guess one memorable segment. The rest could have choreographed better. But the other team was consistently memorable. What is the ideal ratio of iterations of 4-beats of actual dancing (since we should probably exclude long musical build-ups) to distribution of member berries across segments?

But that third team over there had a dancer come out and take the MCAT live during their mela and he/she/ze scored a 520! That’s definitely not easy - that should definitely count for something. Wait, the rubric did say 5%, which that’s also combined with complexity and intricacies of the routine, and the rest of the routine was somewhat basic. So, I guess, not as much because it wasn’t even bhangra related even though all the aunties/uncles in the audience are now holering for that kid’s biodata. But this is a deliberation, let me best try to factor that weightage in with all the other pros/cons of varying degrees of all the other teams.

These are obviously all hypotheticals that don’t pertain to any specific teams & competitions, but these are the types of questions that get factored, discussed, debated, argued, and voted on during deliberations.

You allude to the rubric as if it’s some sort of holy book or magic 8-ball that has all the answers and equations. I’m sure with experience, you’ll understand that too. Most of the time, the rubric is written by people who just don’t have enough dance experience to formulate these opinions and perspectives and even if they did, given the number of factors involved for any situation that could arise the night of a competition, it’s hard to convey any sort of meaningful absolute direction to the judges or even from the start, base judging selections off of that. Hell, organizers will even ask judges to help craft and improve on their rubrics because at the end of the day, it’s a guideline and it’s a means to an end.

 

[siddyp]

I can agree with this. Also coming from teams with no true, as you said Ustaadji, I often find that the best critiques come from judges, BTF, and friends that you send it to. The big thing that I have found from repeat judges is that they are picked solely off of experience, and I'm trying to hit the main point that experience isn't fool-proof. There are so many people out there trying to judge, and that have learned Bhangra from a variety of different styles, so competitions need to do a better job of choosing judges that match their style.

Because while a rubric is great and all, the true hard part of judging comes during deliberation. And I often find that judge's subjectivity predominates during this deliberation, so finding judges who's styles match a rubric will allow for deliberation to more properly follow the rubric of a competition.

Many competitions these days are run by college groups where the organizers tend to be the graduating class that year. In my experience, these individuals, while they have the best of intentions, have little to no experience dancing, competing, and judging, because they’re so busy putting on the best competition they can while still having some time left over for grieve for Harambe.

So, while these competition organizers may be able to express a very vague desire for the judges to place teams that either entertain more or alternately, showcase better bhangra dancing, they’re not specifically able to articulate the specifics that often times get discussed in deliberations that may result in the final rankings. Basically, how exactly they want the multitudes of criteria, aspects, and elements of a performance factored in and weighted against each other, compared to the other performances of the night.

For example, let’s say you have a team that is fairly synchronized but has a few mistakes versus a team that is not as synchronized but commits no mistake. What degree of synchronization are we looking at and how many mistakes constitutes overshadowing the cleaner dancing?

Perhaps, one of the teams also had a shorter routine, but it didn’t feel lacking and was more impactful, while the other one danced for longer which was admirable, but overall, was not as memorable? But they did have the best dhamaal of the night though. So, I guess one memorable segment. The rest could have choreographed better. But the other team was consistently memorable. What is the ideal ratio of iterations of 4-beats of actual dancing (since we should probably exclude long musical build-ups) to distribution of member berries across segments?

But that third team over there had a dancer come out and take the MCAT live during their mela and he/she/ze scored a 520! That’s definitely not easy - that should definitely count for something. Wait, the rubric did say 5%, which that’s also combined with complexity and intricacies of the routine, and the rest of the routine was somewhat basic. So, I guess, not as much because it wasn’t even bhangra related even though all the aunties/uncles in the audience are now holering for that kid’s biodata. But this is a deliberation, let me best try to factor that weightage in with all the other pros/cons of varying degrees of all the other teams.

These are obviously all hypotheticals that don’t pertain to any specific teams & competitions, but these are the types of questions that get factored, discussed, debated, argued, and voted on during deliberations.

You allude to the rubric as if it’s some sort of holy book or magic 8-ball that has all the answers and equations. I’m sure with experience, you’ll understand that too. Most of the time, the rubric is written by people who just don’t have enough dance experience to formulate these opinions and perspectives and even if they did, given the number of factors involved for any situation that could arise the night of a competition, it’s hard to convey any sort of meaningful absolute direction to the judges or even from the start, base judging selections off of that. Hell, organizers will even ask judges to help craft and improve on their rubrics because at the end of the day, it’s a guideline and it’s a means to an end.

miss your posts sue

 

[hardeep_singh]

I'm gonna attempt to comment on these posts. being non-punjabi this stuff is always good to hear because you guys are absolutely right, teams really don't think a lot about the songs that they put into their mixes. generally teams tend to use the songs that are either the most mainstream or which just sound the best based on beat, voice, etc. however, I also don't think that is a bad thing anymore.

I am going to say that the circuit these days is becoming more and more non-punjabi every day. it may not be the majority, but especially among collegiate teams, it is a very large chunk of bhangra dancers in North America and even beyond (Australia, UK, etc.). and speaking as a member of a collegiate team, I will say that we will choose to use songs that our team truly enjoys and wants to dance to. we do actively listen to songs and try our best (with whatever limited Punjabi we know) to not use songs that reference inappropriate things, but at the end of the day if our teammates want to dance to a song, we are going to dance to it. likewise, if there is a song that YOUR TEAM doesn't want to dance to because of the meaning behind it, that is your decision to not use it. song selection is entirely a team decision, and if your team doesn't want to use a certain song because of meaning, by all means don't use it. but don't disrespect other teams for using those songs.

as far as judging goes, i like the idea of every competition having at least one judge who has "sheer Punjabi knowledge", who can make sure that nothing ridiculously offensive is happening, but again the circuit is becoming more and more non-Punjabi. it isn't right at all to have only judges with that true Punjabi knowledge because that just isn't what the circuit is anymore. whether you like that or hate that is up to you, but that's the truth. a team shouldn't win a comp because they are "more Punjabi" in their background and song selection than another team, especially at certain comps out there (BBC, bruin, blowout). if you really don't think a song should be used (like the one mentioned above), explain to teams and let them decide.

Selectively picking aspects of a culture to suit your needs and completely disregarding how and why multiple aspects of a culture may be intertwined and hold significant value is definitely a method of appropriation. Your whole post is an argument for cultural appropriation but you deem yourself progressive because you think you’ve earned some sort of cultural cred by being on bhangra teams, but you’ve never really understood the culture you think you’re representing by performing a dance on stage.

Being punjabi or non-punjabi doesn’t matter, when you love something you try to understand it and be respectful for all aspects of it despite any perceived flaws. Just because the circuit has a large non-punjabi demographic doesn’t give anyone the right to disregard the fact that bhangra is nothing without the punjabi language; that punjabi culture is nothing without punjabi language. The level of arrogance made apparent by stating that a team should use any song no matter who might be offended is pathetic. The only disrespect would be by not telling a team they did something stupid and allowing it to become the status quo.

Still waiting on a response from sumeet jindal, where you at bro?

 

[ManrajBajwa]

I totally agree on some aspect that you pointed out.I have been watching videos from the American,UK and Australian Circuit.What I notice is that everyone has their own way of doing things,their own style.I think its time for all 3 circuits to work together and set bhangra in one direction.Regarding on judges judging based on their experience,this happens because there is no judging organisation that is established to guide new judges on what are the criteria to judges for.Different competition has different rubrics system.It is obvious that captains will listen to judges on how to improve their team during the feedback session.Some judge say, you should add gimmicks in your set and some judges say you should not add gimmicks.So its time for judges to be united and form a judging organisation so that new judges shall be trained on how bhangra should be.In that case all judges would have a similar direction to judge bhangra.



This is my suggestion:
1.Form an organisation to unite all judges and discuss how should bhangra be.
2.Comps should be registered under this organisation to be recognize.
3.Comps that are registered should receive the standardize rubic system.
4.Judges who are judging in recognized comps are strictly required to follow the standard set by the judging organisation.

I know this post might offend some judges,organizer,captains, and members, but this ONLY MY SUGGESTION there are other ways of doing it.If everyone has a motive to set bhangra in that one direction then this situation would be solved easily.

I understand the sentiment, but it takes away from the competition diversity. It's what makes Bruin, Bruin, and MCB, MCB. Let comps and organizers choose what style of bhangra they want at their comps. One rubric style for all comps will take away from diversity and for certainly, make all teams looks the same.

agree with sid here. my main reason for posting this wasn't to change the rubrics that each comp posts, that is 100% their decision and should reflect whatever style of bhangra they are trying to host. rather change up the judges from comp to comp. and most importantly, choose judges that will actually stick to the rubric, and choose judges who's styles actually match what the competition is going for.


ex. don't let some folk ass judge try to go to boston and adhere to that rubric. it'll only work until a certain point and then subjectivity will take over. i'd rather see a less experienced judge who's style matches the rubric over a more experienced judge picked just because of his/her experience.

Thats true. How people will know what style does the judges judge when your trying to form a new circuit.

 

[sumeetj]

I'm gonna attempt to comment on these posts. being non-punjabi this stuff is always good to hear because you guys are absolutely right, teams really don't think a lot about the songs that they put into their mixes. generally teams tend to use the songs that are either the most mainstream or which just sound the best based on beat, voice, etc. however, I also don't think that is a bad thing anymore.

I am going to say that the circuit these days is becoming more and more non-punjabi every day. it may not be the majority, but especially among collegiate teams, it is a very large chunk of bhangra dancers in North America and even beyond (Australia, UK, etc.). and speaking as a member of a collegiate team, I will say that we will choose to use songs that our team truly enjoys and wants to dance to. we do actively listen to songs and try our best (with whatever limited Punjabi we know) to not use songs that reference inappropriate things, but at the end of the day if our teammates want to dance to a song, we are going to dance to it. likewise, if there is a song that YOUR TEAM doesn't want to dance to because of the meaning behind it, that is your decision to not use it. song selection is entirely a team decision, and if your team doesn't want to use a certain song because of meaning, by all means don't use it. but don't disrespect other teams for using those songs.

as far as judging goes, i like the idea of every competition having at least one judge who has "sheer Punjabi knowledge", who can make sure that nothing ridiculously offensive is happening, but again the circuit is becoming more and more non-Punjabi. it isn't right at all to have only judges with that true Punjabi knowledge because that just isn't what the circuit is anymore. whether you like that or hate that is up to you, but that's the truth. a team shouldn't win a comp because they are "more Punjabi" in their background and song selection than another team, especially at certain comps out there (BBC, bruin, blowout). if you really don't think a song should be used (like the one mentioned above), explain to teams and let them decide.

Selectively picking aspects of a culture to suit your needs and completely disregarding how and why multiple aspects of a culture may be intertwined and hold significant value is definitely a method of appropriation. Your whole post is an argument for cultural appropriation but you deem yourself progressive because you think you’ve earned some sort of cultural cred by being on bhangra teams, but you’ve never really understood the culture you think you’re representing by performing a dance on stage.

Being punjabi or non-punjabi doesn’t matter, when you love something you try to understand it and be respectful for all aspects of it despite any perceived flaws. Just because the circuit has a large non-punjabi demographic doesn’t give anyone the right to disregard the fact that bhangra is nothing without the punjabi language; that punjabi culture is nothing without punjabi language. The level of arrogance made apparent by stating that a team should use any song no matter who might be offended is pathetic. The only disrespect would be by not telling a team they did something stupid and allowing it to become the status quo.

Still waiting on a response from sumeet jindal, where you at bro?

Hardeep -

I think you are right to call out teams and again, you are right that you are doing the right thing by calling a team out for making mistakes that are disrespectful to the culture. I simply think you could do it (at times) in a nicer and more positive way, that's all. I feel like most people are really receptive to this sort of feedback and though they may have exercised ignorance in the first place by dancing to an improper song, if they are made to understand why that song is an issue instead of having a sarcastic jab thrown at them, I'm sure they wouldn't do it again.

You have a lot of knowedge about the culture and I've personally benefited greatly from it (everything from your pagg tying to discussion about sets back in the day) and I'm sure others will love to as well.

 

[sarora10]

While not perfect, DDN and the fusion circuit have a good grasp on the way to progress a circuit and could serve as a pretty good model. Im not saying that we should (but we definitely could) do these things, but we should definitely consider the purposes of them and how we can incorporate them to our circuit

They have a new platform (fb) rather than using a forum, which allows SO MANY PEOPLE to be a part of it. Its so easy to get everyone on your team involved in a fb group versus them registering on BTF. Easy to moderate posts, easy document sharing, easy video sharing, easy commenting, easy replies, notifications.... essentially easy everything.
BTF might have been great back in the day, but really none of its features are being used and stuff it outdated.
Also people get to know one another too by real names, not just by their BTF name which some of these trolls hide behind

They have a board that regulates said platform. This DDN board is changed every year so that its not the same people moderating year after year after year. This is fantastic as it allows the younger dancers to get involved in the circuit.
EVERYONE on their platform is supportive and constructive. I have yet to see trolls on their posts or people just shit talking for no reason. (possibly because mods can just remove those people from the fb group)
It would be cool to have a small panel like this for the bhangra circuit, comprised of current captains/dancers who ARE ACTIVE on the forums and provide good thought/discussion to improving the circuit as a whole.
***I really think mods should start removing people on BTF who consistently troll posts instead of closing threads. Closing threads is not beneficial to the circuit because I bet that thread had some good discussion and could/should be continued.

They also have a bid system for a 'nationals' which could be used as a model if its something people are interested in. This would take a tremendous amount of work, but would be awesome if it actually came to light.

I really agree with a lot of what Yesh said. Firstly, I think the Fusion Circuit itself is a great way to see how we can evolve as a circuit. Teams have evolved from pure Bollywood Dance teams to Fusion teams, incorporating different styles of dance, different song choices, etc - while the essence of it still holds onto our Indian culture. I personally love the fact that Bollywood/Fusion Dance has exploded in the US and has become something that is recognizable among not just Indian people, but a larger demographic. I think its totally okay for the Bhangra circuit to evolve similarly, especially if everyone makes the effort to learn about the culture behind the art form.


That being said, it's not always easy to learn about Bhangra or how it relates to Punjabi culture. I'm from a team where previous captains self-taught themselves bhangra and passed it on to captains that followed. I've tried my best to learn as much as I can through youtube videos, the internet, reaching out to people, etc - but its not easy to find resources. I think if there was a way to make "experts" more accessible to newer teams, it would really help them learn the history behind the dance. BTF is great, but we don't have the type of open, supportive and constructive conversations that I see on DDN. To be quite frank, I know that is one reason I'm a little afraid to reach out to people and tend to reach out to friends on other teams rather than "experts". I think changing the platform of our communication to utilize Facebook + connecting experienced dancers with newer teams would really help us newer/less established teams.


I also really like the bid system/nationals of the Fusion circuit. I think something like this would force established teams to push themselves to the next level, while it would also allow a new generation of teams to compete in the non-bid comps. This type of system would allow us to have a continuous flow of talent building up. I know there are issues with the fact that some comps are more modern while others are more folk - but I think if we can create a balance between these two types of comps when giving bids, it has potential.


Please please please take all of this with a grain of salt, I just wanted to post as a current captain of a small team to give another perspective...

 

[sdadoo15]

I'm gonna attempt to comment on these posts. being non-punjabi this stuff is always good to hear because you guys are absolutely right, teams really don't think a lot about the songs that they put into their mixes. generally teams tend to use the songs that are either the most mainstream or which just sound the best based on beat, voice, etc. however, I also don't think that is a bad thing anymore.

I am going to say that the circuit these days is becoming more and more non-punjabi every day. it may not be the majority, but especially among collegiate teams, it is a very large chunk of bhangra dancers in North America and even beyond (Australia, UK, etc.). and speaking as a member of a collegiate team, I will say that we will choose to use songs that our team truly enjoys and wants to dance to. we do actively listen to songs and try our best (with whatever limited Punjabi we know) to not use songs that reference inappropriate things, but at the end of the day if our teammates want to dance to a song, we are going to dance to it. likewise, if there is a song that YOUR TEAM doesn't want to dance to because of the meaning behind it, that is your decision to not use it. song selection is entirely a team decision, and if your team doesn't want to use a certain song because of meaning, by all means don't use it. but don't disrespect other teams for using those songs.

as far as judging goes, i like the idea of every competition having at least one judge who has "sheer Punjabi knowledge", who can make sure that nothing ridiculously offensive is happening, but again the circuit is becoming more and more non-Punjabi. it isn't right at all to have only judges with that true Punjabi knowledge because that just isn't what the circuit is anymore. whether you like that or hate that is up to you, but that's the truth. a team shouldn't win a comp because they are "more Punjabi" in their background and song selection than another team, especially at certain comps out there (BBC, bruin, blowout). if you really don't think a song should be used (like the one mentioned above), explain to teams and let them decide.

Selectively picking aspects of a culture to suit your needs and completely disregarding how and why multiple aspects of a culture may be intertwined and hold significant value is definitely a method of appropriation. Your whole post is an argument for cultural appropriation but you deem yourself progressive because you think you’ve earned some sort of cultural cred by being on bhangra teams, but you’ve never really understood the culture you think you’re representing by performing a dance on stage.

Being punjabi or non-punjabi doesn’t matter, when you love something you try to understand it and be respectful for all aspects of it despite any perceived flaws. Just because the circuit has a large non-punjabi demographic doesn’t give anyone the right to disregard the fact that bhangra is nothing without the punjabi language; that punjabi culture is nothing without punjabi language. The level of arrogance made apparent by stating that a team should use any song no matter who might be offended is pathetic. The only disrespect would be by not telling a team they did something stupid and allowing it to become the status quo.

Still waiting on a response from sumeet jindal, where you at bro?

I agree with all this, but the point I'm trying to make is that you have to be mindful of the fact that a large amount of the circuit is now non-Punjabi and most don't have the understanding of the culture that you do. Saying that we don't represent the Punjabi culture by dancing Bhangra but not fully understanding it is arguably more disrespectful than us using inappropriate songs. Every team out there aims to respect the culture as much as they can, but the issue is that many teams out there have limited resources to understand when they're doing something wrong. Since you feel strongly about this, and rightfully so, help teams out if you think they're not being respectful. Like Sumeet said, I respect the amount of knowledge that you have about the culture, and yes the language is absolutely crucial to understanding the culture. But at least to me, anyone who does bhangra respects the culture. Just because we don't come from a Punjabi background, and don't understand every aspect of the culture, doesn't mean that we don't respect the dance form, and the culture behind it.

I am more than happy to hear anytime I'm doing something wrong (I.e. Using a song with the meaning you mentioned in the first post), but if you feel strongly about it I think you could definitely tell teams in a more constructive way.

 

[hardeep_singh]

Hardeep -

I think you are right to call out teams and again, you are right that you are doing the right thing by calling a team out for making mistakes that are disrespectful to the culture. I simply think you could do it (at times) in a nicer and more positive way, that's all. I feel like most people are really receptive to this sort of feedback and though they may have exercised ignorance in the first place by dancing to an improper song, if they are made to understand why that song is an issue instead of having a sarcastic jab thrown at them, I'm sure they wouldn't do it again.

You have a lot of knowedge about the culture and I've personally benefited greatly from it (everything from your pagg tying to discussion about sets back in the day) and I'm sure others will love to as well.

agreed, i definitely have a habit of being harsh and that's partially due to feeling like i always have to argue the unpopular opinion on here and partially because i expect people to just be smarter about stuff (neither of these justify my asshole behavior). i will be less abrasive and hopefully people will be a little more open minded. there are a lot of issues in the circuit that should be discussed further especially the topic of how non-punjabis are not shown respect or fair treatment in the circuit and what can be done to change the ignorance they face. the fact is i feel like the level of intellectualism is low in alllll of the discussions on here, people need to learn to learn.

 

[Kaur]

Regarding feedback

- a lot of team have stopped posting videos because they don't want feedback. I have noticed that when feedback is given team take it personally so ppl have stopped. I get private messages all the time to provide feedback and I feel that the new trend now.

Judging
- this discussion has been going on for the past 10yrs I've been in the circuit, it has slowly gotten better over the years but no matter how hard competitions try , you can't make everyone happy.