Reaching Out to all **CURRENT** Dancers/Captains

[Aka$h]

Regardless of any limited resources, I'm sure a team of 8-16 dancers can find at least 1 Punjabi person to translate music, most Punjabi mixers will probably do it. That being said, I'm willing to translate songs if anyone needs help in the future.

 

[GSingh]

Regardless of any limited resources, I'm sure a team of 8-16 dancers can find at least 1 Punjabi person to translate music, most Punjabi mixers will probably do it. That being said, I'm willing to translate songs if anyone needs help in the future.

I echo the same. As a mixer, I'm not only providing my time and technical skill, but also musical, lyrical, cultural knowledge. Some mixers feel that it's not their place to make suggestions and such but I'd implore you to thoroughly think about what you're being asked to do and provide feedback to the team if you feel something isn't for the best. After all, it's also your name on the mix.

I remember being shocked when I heard Kush (guardians) didn't speak much punjabi yet every mix was so well structured lyrically. Each Mashup was cohesive and made sense. He asked anyone and everyone about songs he liked/wanted to use to get proper feedback. This whole "I don't speak punjabi and don't know anyone that does therefore ill use whatever song I like" excuse is majorly Bullshit. If you don't have any punjabi speaking friends, make some. If having difficulty, ask someone on a team that you know speaks punjabi. If you ask 20 people, at least one will surely respond positively.

 

[sdadoo15]

Regardless of any limited resources, I'm sure a team of 8-16 dancers can find at least 1 Punjabi person to translate music, most Punjabi mixers will probably do it. That being said, I'm willing to translate songs if anyone needs help in the future.

I echo the same. As a mixer, I'm not only providing my time and technical skill, but also musical, lyrical, cultural knowledge. Some mixers feel that it's not their place to make suggestions and such but I'd implore you to thoroughly think about what you're being asked to do and provide feedback to the team if you feel something isn't for the best. After all, it's also your name on the mix.

I remember being shocked when I heard Kush (guardians) didn't speak much punjabi yet every mix was so well structured lyrically. Each Mashup was cohesive and made sense. He asked anyone and everyone about songs he liked/wanted to use to get proper feedback. This whole "I don't speak punjabi and don't know anyone that does therefore ill use whatever song I like" excuse is majorly Bullshit. If you don't have any punjabi speaking friends, make some. If having difficulty, ask someone on a team that you know speaks punjabi. If you ask 20 people, at least one will surely respond positively.

So then kind of as a follow up to what you and Hardeep are saying, what's considered appropriate/inappropriate or offensive? Cause the majority of songs I've heard have at least some references to guns, violence, drugs, alcohol, etc. Like is this stuff considered offensive or is it more of the historical references that have some meaning to it (Hardeeps original post in this thread)?

 

[sdadoo15]

I can agree with this. Also coming from teams with no true, as you said Ustaadji, I often find that the best critiques come from judges, BTF, and friends that you send it to. The big thing that I have found from repeat judges is that they are picked solely off of experience, and I'm trying to hit the main point that experience isn't fool-proof. There are so many people out there trying to judge, and that have learned Bhangra from a variety of different styles, so competitions need to do a better job of choosing judges that match their style.

Because while a rubric is great and all, the true hard part of judging comes during deliberation. And I often find that judge's subjectivity predominates during this deliberation, so finding judges who's styles match a rubric will allow for deliberation to more properly follow the rubric of a competition.

Many competitions these days are run by college groups where the organizers tend to be the graduating class that year. In my experience, these individuals, while they have the best of intentions, have little to no experience dancing, competing, and judging, because they’re so busy putting on the best competition they can while still having some time left over for grieve for Harambe.

So, while these competition organizers may be able to express a very vague desire for the judges to place teams that either entertain more or alternately, showcase better bhangra dancing, they’re not specifically able to articulate the specifics that often times get discussed in deliberations that may result in the final rankings. Basically, how exactly they want the multitudes of criteria, aspects, and elements of a performance factored in and weighted against each other, compared to the other performances of the night.

For example, let’s say you have a team that is fairly synchronized but has a few mistakes versus a team that is not as synchronized but commits no mistake. What degree of synchronization are we looking at and how many mistakes constitutes overshadowing the cleaner dancing?

Perhaps, one of the teams also had a shorter routine, but it didn’t feel lacking and was more impactful, while the other one danced for longer which was admirable, but overall, was not as memorable? But they did have the best dhamaal of the night though. So, I guess one memorable segment. The rest could have choreographed better. But the other team was consistently memorable. What is the ideal ratio of iterations of 4-beats of actual dancing (since we should probably exclude long musical build-ups) to distribution of member berries across segments?

But that third team over there had a dancer come out and take the MCAT live during their mela and he/she/ze scored a 520! That’s definitely not easy - that should definitely count for something. Wait, the rubric did say 5%, which that’s also combined with complexity and intricacies of the routine, and the rest of the routine was somewhat basic. So, I guess, not as much because it wasn’t even bhangra related even though all the aunties/uncles in the audience are now holering for that kid’s biodata. But this is a deliberation, let me best try to factor that weightage in with all the other pros/cons of varying degrees of all the other teams.

These are obviously all hypotheticals that don’t pertain to any specific teams & competitions, but these are the types of questions that get factored, discussed, debated, argued, and voted on during deliberations.

You allude to the rubric as if it’s some sort of holy book or magic 8-ball that has all the answers and equations. I’m sure with experience, you’ll understand that too. Most of the time, the rubric is written by people who just don’t have enough dance experience to formulate these opinions and perspectives and even if they did, given the number of factors involved for any situation that could arise the night of a competition, it’s hard to convey any sort of meaningful absolute direction to the judges or even from the start, base judging selections off of that. Hell, organizers will even ask judges to help craft and improve on their rubrics because at the end of the day, it’s a guideline and it’s a means to an end.

Also would like to return to this, cause I feel like it kind of got overlooked. I agree with what you're saying, and I do understand all the complications of deliberation but here's my question: if I as a dancer don't allude to the rubric as if it has all the answers and is a "magic 8 ball" as you said, what all do I have to reference or guide me as I'm making a set?

Many teams these days create their set based on the rubric and the judging panel, which may or may not be the right thing to do (that's a whole different discussion), which is why I originally posted about judges needing to better follow the rubric given to teams at the beginning of the post-reg process. If I don't allude to the rubric, what else other than the rubric do I have to go on when I'm deciding what to do in a set?

 

[lavesh]

Having judged 5 comps this year, I come across consistent issues for a majority of teams:


1. Improve your actual Bhangra steps, particularly from an upper body perspective. Very few teams maximize their shoulders and chest when doing Bhangra. This is a fundamental element of the dance. Additionally, I see a lack of arm extensions, variations in finger/wrist movements, and flexing arms (AKA lot of elbow shaking) very often. You should not get a check box in the traditional category for doing Dhamaal, Jhummar, etc. - you should be judged on HOW you do Dhamaal, Jhummar, etc. This also puts the onus on competitions and judges to ensure the right rubrics and people are in place.


2. Show variations in the speed/tempo of your set. Many teams have the songs with the same Dhol beat for 3-4 mins in a row. Going from that fast to slow and vice versa in a smooth manner is important for multiple reasons - difficult of choreography points on a rubric, engaging and keeping the audience's attention, executing moves optimally, etc.


3. Improve smiles and nakhre. I keep seeing people do the "puffing out" thing all the time and angry faces during hard jhummar. The smile is a core fundamental of Bhangra. I don't mind seeing teams do something unique with nakhre, but first establish the fact that you can show off your smile and expressions in accordance with maximizing the step before you try all the other stuff.


The points above (execution of steps, sets, nakhre) haven't improve for some time in the the circuit and I think taking these head on will help with the perceived "stagnation" of Bhangra. There are definitely some good things being done, don't get me wrong. But if all teams put in some effort to improve upon these areas, I think it would help elevate the scene tremendously.


Lavesh

 

[GSingh]

Regardless of any limited resources, I'm sure a team of 8-16 dancers can find at least 1 Punjabi person to translate music, most Punjabi mixers will probably do it. That being said, I'm willing to translate songs if anyone needs help in the future.

I echo the same. As a mixer, I'm not only providing my time and technical skill, but also musical, lyrical, cultural knowledge. Some mixers feel that it's not their place to make suggestions and such but I'd implore you to thoroughly think about what you're being asked to do and provide feedback to the team if you feel something isn't for the best. After all, it's also your name on the mix.

I remember being shocked when I heard Kush (guardians) didn't speak much punjabi yet every mix was so well structured lyrically. Each Mashup was cohesive and made sense. He asked anyone and everyone about songs he liked/wanted to use to get proper feedback. This whole "I don't speak punjabi and don't know anyone that does therefore ill use whatever song I like" excuse is majorly Bullshit. If you don't have any punjabi speaking friends, make some. If having difficulty, ask someone on a team that you know speaks punjabi. If you ask 20 people, at least one will surely respond positively.

So then kind of as a follow up to what you and Hardeep are saying, what's considered appropriate/inappropriate or offensive? Cause the majority of songs I've heard have at least some references to guns, violence, drugs, alcohol, etc. Like is this stuff considered offensive or is it more of the historical references that have some meaning to it (Hardeeps original post in this thread)?

This is wholly my opinion, therefore not my expectation that the whole circuit view it as the absolute truth or anything -- however, it would make me happy to see teams adopt some of the following:


1. The blatantly religious stuff is definitely off the table. You can't be talking about the deaths of our martyrs and their contributions to Sikhi -- and be smiling on stage leaping around joyfully. It paints a contradictory picture -- and is disrespectful even, depending on the actual song, that a serious and personal topic is being lowkey mocked. Some people even take offense to it on a more racial/religious level that members of an outside community are enjoying/celebrating what are considered in our history very dark times. This becomes amplified when songs that contradict the message in the religious song are played next to them.


Example: "Khalsa jawan hogya" is a song that sounds very cool and gets your blood pumping. What it means? The army of Guru Gobind Singh has finally come of age and ready to fight for their land/religion/civil rights. Now follow that up with any other 'modern' song that you'd hear at a party with something along the lines of "after 3 pegs, the jatts call goats at the lover's front door". Somewhat extreme example with khalsa jawan hogya and Chamkila -- but not far from what I've actually heard in the past. An audience member that speaks punjabi would immediately dismiss the team's effort in presenting a folk dance -- a lok naach -- because of their inability (or lack of effort) to parse what they're actually dancing to. The mixed message comes off as amateur. The dancing may be next level amazing, but bhangra is more than just choreo to a dhol beat.


2. Guns and violence. All about the context.


Punjabi culture is very ingrained with the idea of "Anakh" or valor. Historically born from a warrior culture, the people embrace the idea of fighting for what's right and even sacrificing oneself for the greater good (How much that's still a part of today's people has a lot more variation just because of how society has evolved but the concept is what's at play here). With that, we listen to the song and see what the violence is all about. Some songs say "I'm gonna snatch you from your family with the might of my 12 bore di." That message doesn't resonate with me. If it does with you (not you in particular Sahil, just in general lol) go ahead and use that song -- but make sure you don't follow it up with some shit like "your love makes me wanna chase butterflies" because that's weak shit and completely contradicts your previous message.


If you listen to boliyan, they're not all happy go lucky. "Pakki goli da kharaaka sunda te kundia de singh fasge nariye, andro faraa de nagni, banda mariye". *****s dying here. Their character was questioned, their family was put on blast, or whatever whatever the reason maybe.


Some teams may have rivalries that they try to call out through lyrics. "Variya de kande kadhne, koi aan ke mahi da laal takre" etc etc. It's got a message that represents the team's disposition.


3. Drugs and alcohol


No need for it really. The song represents the team, that's why you chose it. If a team wants to portray itself as drunkards in front of families and kids, be my guest. But watch the look on your aunty's face when they see 8 guys and girls doing chaal to "daru peeke daru peeka jatt bukde, maarde gali'ch lalkaare".

Not that I necessarily disagree with the fact that lyrics should be paid attention to, but I'd also like to point out that it's extremely difficult to find modern songs that are "wholesome."

You're right. Modern music is mostly trash.

 

[Mr. Mankiran]

Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to post songs on this very forum and just ask what the meaning is. Clearly people are willing to help out since this thread and topic are currently popping off.

 

[Yesh]

On the topic of songs, what is the criteria for reusing old songs. I understand some teams have wrecked songs and have had memorable segments, but I don't think that should hinder a team the ability to use that song especially if it has been a couple of years.

I have had judges comment during meetings as one of their critiques that they didn't like a segment because the song was used by another team at a different comp and was well done. Should judges be doing that? I understand where they are coming from, but I highly believe judges should be judging that specific comp and what was done there itself and not compare what is performed at that comp to previous performances.

 

[sdadoo15]

On the topic of songs, what is the criteria for reusing old songs. I understand some teams have wrecked songs and have had memorable segments, but I don't think that should hinder a team the ability to use that song especially if it has been a couple of years.

I have had judges comment during meetings as one of their critiques that they didn't like a segment because the song was used by another team at a different comp and was well done. Should judges be doing that? I understand where they are coming from, but I highly believe judges should be judging that specific comp and what was done there itself and not compare what is performed at that comp to previous performances.

From what I have understood through feedback and trial and error, I think its completely okay to reuse old songs but you just have to do it better than any team has done it in the past. I.e. don't let the judges pull a Kanye and say "You did 'Tere Tille Ton' well, but X team/performance had the best 'Tere Tille Ton' of all time." It's always a risk to use old songs, but just do it better than it's been done before and I think it's fine to do.


I do agree that judges should always judge to a specific competition and what is presented there, but you can't avoid the fact that judges may enjoy how teams have done certain songs in the past, and if you do a mediocre version of an overused song it'll just leave a bad taste in the judge's mouth.

 

[hsdeol]

For captains serious about getting feedback on vids- when you post your video on btf post your own feedback of the set/performance as well. If something doesnt go as planned on stage and you dont know why or how to fix it, explain what was supposed to happen (or even post a practice vid where it looks better) so people can help.

Its tough to watch a video and be able to list feedback for an entire set that will actually be constructive. I imagine most people turn on a video and watch it for entertainment without any intent of analyzing the video, post a comment on btf, or even watching it ever again. As a dancer (esp if youre a captain) you watch videos a lot differently than everyone else. Ask for opinions on specific aspects of your set and broad open ended questions.

Don't be afraid to be honest about your opinions of your set ("we did ____ style of gimmick because thats whats in and we knew every other team in the line up would do it too") or your opinions of other teams sets. Not trying to sound like im calling 07-12 the glory days, but at that time there were a lot of BTF users that werent afraid to post their opinions (and back them up). As a spectator it was awesome because there was a reason why I wanted to watch a team or go to a show beyond just seeing a good performance. Props to Howie for posting about wanting to beat CMU last year. No clue if this was an inside joke or whatever, but seeing him post multiple times that he was going into comps to beat them made me interested to watch the CMU and MBT vids when they were in a line up together and see how it played out.

As a dancer, the honest in feedback and opinions, whether they were good or bad, gave me an extra reason to not go out there and suck in my next performance.


At the end of the day, if you seriously want help from BTF with developing your team you have to do more than post your vid and expect constructive feedback to just pop up organically. Post your thoughts on your own performance and ask the right questions to start a productive discussion. If you dont like someone's opinion or disagree with their of your performance, feel free to respond and back your team up. Gotta remember tho- valuable feedback doesnt always come with a pretty little bow on it. And be willing to share your opinions on current trends in the circuit or performances by other teams.



This was mainly directed at people running teams, but if you feel like you dont have enough experience or arent as involved with the circuit, dont be afraid to post your opinions. We're all in this together-your perspective is as valid as the rest.

 

[amancheema]

SEPBC is offering mix consulting for $50... full inspection and check of the lyrics to identify red flags and political incorrectness, for an additional $50 someone will call you and translate your whole mix word for word from Punjabi to English

SHerepanjabbhangra@gmail.com

 

[Shastri]

While not perfect, DDN and the fusion circuit have a good grasp on the way to progress a circuit and could serve as a pretty good model. Im not saying that we should (but we definitely could) do these things, but we should definitely consider the purposes of them and how we can incorporate them to our circuit

They have a new platform (fb) rather than using a forum, which allows SO MANY PEOPLE to be a part of it. Its so easy to get everyone on your team involved in a fb group versus them registering on BTF. Easy to moderate posts, easy document sharing, easy video sharing, easy commenting, easy replies, notifications.... essentially easy everything.
BTF might have been great back in the day, but really none of its features are being used and stuff it outdated.
Also people get to know one another too by real names, not just by their BTF name which some of these trolls hide behind

They have a board that regulates said platform. This DDN board is changed every year so that its not the same people moderating year after year after year. This is fantastic as it allows the younger dancers to get involved in the circuit.
EVERYONE on their platform is supportive and constructive. I have yet to see trolls on their posts or people just shit talking for no reason. (possibly because mods can just remove those people from the fb group)
It would be cool to have a small panel like this for the bhangra circuit, comprised of current captains/dancers who ARE ACTIVE on the forums and provide good thought/discussion to improving the circuit as a whole.
***I really think mods should start removing people on BTF who consistently troll posts instead of closing threads. Closing threads is not beneficial to the circuit because I bet that thread had some good discussion and could/should be continued.

They also have a bid system for a 'nationals' which could be used as a model if its something people are interested in. This would take a tremendous amount of work, but would be awesome if it actually came to light.

I really agree with a lot of what Yesh said. Firstly, I think the Fusion Circuit itself is a great way to see how we can evolve as a circuit. Teams have evolved from pure Bollywood Dance teams to Fusion teams, incorporating different styles of dance, different song choices, etc - while the essence of it still holds onto our Indian culture. I personally love the fact that Bollywood/Fusion Dance has exploded in the US and has become something that is recognizable among not just Indian people, but a larger demographic. I think its totally okay for the Bhangra circuit to evolve similarly, especially if everyone makes the effort to learn about the culture behind the art form.


That being said, it's not always easy to learn about Bhangra or how it relates to Punjabi culture. I'm from a team where previous captains self-taught themselves bhangra and passed it on to captains that followed. I've tried my best to learn as much as I can through youtube videos, the internet, reaching out to people, etc - but its not easy to find resources. I think if there was a way to make "experts" more accessible to newer teams, it would really help them learn the history behind the dance. BTF is great, but we don't have the type of open, supportive and constructive conversations that I see on DDN. To be quite frank, I know that is one reason I'm a little afraid to reach out to people and tend to reach out to friends on other teams rather than "experts". I think changing the platform of our communication to utilize Facebook + connecting experienced dancers with newer teams would really help us newer/less established teams.


I also really like the bid system/nationals of the Fusion circuit. I think something like this would force established teams to push themselves to the next level, while it would also allow a new generation of teams to compete in the non-bid comps. This type of system would allow us to have a continuous flow of talent building up. I know there are issues with the fact that some comps are more modern while others are more folk - but I think if we can create a balance between these two types of comps when giving bids, it has potential.


Please please please take all of this with a grain of salt, I just wanted to post as a current captain of a small team to give another perspective...

The fusion circuit has bid comps and bid point comps which can bring weaker teams to the best of comps when they really don't deserve to be there over other (better) teams who have applied to the same comps. You also have teams who don't compete often, and if those teams don't get first at the comps they do compete at, then you would never get to see them perform at the best comps.

Also think the reason why DDN is more friendly is because bollywood fusion incorporates all dances and there's no defined version of the modern bollywood dance. With bhangra, youre talking a dance rooted in a culture/religion, so there's naturally gonna be more harsh disagreement in terms of preferences.

 

[guranshsingh]

In regards to reusing old songs, beyond even the judges perspective, as an observer, I tend to not enjoy segments that use songs that were extremely popular. For example, if a team were to use BASS's jhumar song (from Bruin), unless it was incredible, I don't think it would hit as hard. Not only because BASS's segment was hot as hell, but also because of the sheer popularity of that segment on dailybhangra/GTV Instagrams.


I think after a couple of years, that song (or any popular contemporary songs) can be used again. Another example, if a team were to use Yaari Chandigarh Waliye this year, I wouldn't be super hyped for the segment just because almost every single team used it in their mix two years ago.


There is such an abundance of songs these days that it is entirely possible to have a mix full of songs that haven't been overused. Yes, it is exhausting to listen to 50 awful songs in a row, but you may find a song that is low key really tight. mr-jatt.com, speed records on YouTube, t-series- all are easy resources for new songs that teams can use.


Definitely agree with what Gsingh, Aka$h and Hardeep have been saying about song meanings. While not necessary to understand every single word of a song, as long as the gist is clear to you and your team and that meaning aligns with your vision for the segment, then it is okay to use it! However, not knowing Punjabi and therefore not understanding a song doesn't give team license to use whatever they want. Also want to repeat the Sikhi/Historic song point by Gsingh- dancing to a song about martyrs, as cool as the song may be, is not okay. Bhangra is supposed to be a happy dance (hence the emphasis on smiling throughout the whole routine), and dancing to songs with such deep, historic meanings takes away from the severity of those historic instances.


By no means am I an expert on the Punjabi Language, but I am also willing to help with understanding songs!

 

[Shastri]

Judging

I think there should be a better vetting process to who can and should be a judge and who should not. Competitions should be more careful about the judges that they invite into the competition, because I have definitely seen a few judges in the circuit who a. don't fit the style of the competition and b. just aren't qualified to judge. To many of the more experienced dancers who have applied to be judges in the past but have been denied, now is the time. There's a ton of new competitions coming out with a need for experienced dancers to judge, and because there's been a shortage of applications from those dancers, these competitions have definitely seen some weaker judging. Not speaking on behalf of my team but just speaking from my personal opinion/what I've seen from some of the newer competitions.

Don't be afraid to be honest about your opinions of your set ("we did ____ style of gimmick because thats whats in and we knew every other team in the line up would do it too") or your opinions of other teams sets. Not trying to sound like im calling 07-12 the glory days, but at that time there were a lot of BTF users that werent afraid to post their opinions (and back them up). As a spectator it was awesome because there was a reason why I wanted to watch a team or go to a show beyond just seeing a good performance. Props to Howie for posting about wanting to beat CMU last year. No clue if this was an inside joke or whatever, but seeing him post multiple times that he was going into comps to beat them made me interested to watch the CMU and MBT vids when they were in a line up together and see how it played out.

As a dancer, the honest in feedback and opinions, whether they were good or bad, gave me an extra reason to not go out there and suck in my next performance.


This was mainly directed at people running teams, but if you feel like you dont have enough experience or arent as involved with the circuit, dont be afraid to post your opinions. We're all in this together-your perspective is as valid as the rest.

Not relevant to what I said above, but I couldn't agree with this more. There's way too many dancers who are afraid to speak their minds. It doesn't matter how good your team is or how good of a dancer you are. No one is gonna punish you for trying to get better, or speaking your opinion.

 

[Howie Magz]

For captains serious about getting feedback on vids- when you post your video on btf post your own feedback of the set/performance as well. If something doesnt go as planned on stage and you dont know why or how to fix it, explain what was supposed to happen (or even post a practice vid where it looks better) so people can help.

Its tough to watch a video and be able to list feedback for an entire set that will actually be constructive. I imagine most people turn on a video and watch it for entertainment without any intent of analyzing the video, post a comment on btf, or even watching it ever again. As a dancer (esp if youre a captain) you watch videos a lot differently than everyone else. Ask for opinions on specific aspects of your set and broad open ended questions.

Don't be afraid to be honest about your opinions of your set ("we did ____ style of gimmick because thats whats in and we knew every other team in the line up would do it too") or your opinions of other teams sets. Not trying to sound like im calling 07-12 the glory days, but at that time there were a lot of BTF users that werent afraid to post their opinions (and back them up). As a spectator it was awesome because there was a reason why I wanted to watch a team or go to a show beyond just seeing a good performance. Props to Howie for posting about wanting to beat CMU last year. No clue if this was an inside joke or whatever, but seeing him post multiple times that he was going into comps to beat them made me interested to watch the CMU and MBT vids when they were in a line up together and see how it played out.

As a dancer, the honest in feedback and opinions, whether they were good or bad, gave me an extra reason to not go out there and suck in my next performance.


At the end of the day, if you seriously want help from BTF with developing your team you have to do more than post your vid and expect constructive feedback to just pop up organically. Post your thoughts on your own performance and ask the right questions to start a productive discussion. If you dont like someone's opinion or disagree with their of your performance, feel free to respond and back your team up. Gotta remember tho- valuable feedback doesnt always come with a pretty little bow on it. And be willing to share your opinions on current trends in the circuit or performances by other teams.



This was mainly directed at people running teams, but if you feel like you dont have enough experience or arent as involved with the circuit, dont be afraid to post your opinions. We're all in this together-your perspective is as valid as the rest.

Haha it wasn't a inside joke last year. MBT last year honestly tried to beat CMU, but we weren't able to do so. Also it was us trying to start a little rivalry with them even though they beat us everytime.....I encourage rivalries it always keeps things interesting.

 

[Saab]

Some actual actionable points on a few of these things:

Judging:

1. Comps should find a way to make the maximum upper limit for a mix(8-9 minutes) be the limit for feedback. Realize this is an exhaustive process, but so is the build up to a competition and the hard work being put in. This allows for discussion on the performance and an actual Q+A session with a judge.
2. Embrace group feedback sessions - I know people don't want to talk about judging results with multiple people, but for transparency, actually having a group feedback session with all the competing team captains and judge might remove the initial 95% of questions that are asked at competitions
3. Greater connections between judges and comp organizers - sahil makes a point that competition organizers, while not able to judge intricacies of the set, should define what sort of competition they would like to judge and communicate that to the judges. This way, even if a judge has different taste, the comp rubric and rhetoric can be framed around the style of dancing that a competition wants to see. I have seen rubrics reworked to reflect the tastes of a competition or judges, and this reinforces key core concepts that need to be seen from a winning team.


Feedback:

1. Just being blunt, I don't know what BTF offers that Facebook, Text etc can provide. Judging transparency and the prevalence of just getting feedback in person or through a facebook message kills the feedback vibe here. I would agree that younger moderators, a refreshed forum, and links to facebook/other social platforms would make this a much more viable place for feedback.
2. Reviews and feedback, at a high level take time. To harmans point - trying to preface what you post with some sort of thought as to what you thought of the set and what you want to hear makes the feedback process that much easier.
3. Off Topic comments - you can't keep the forum alive on just bhangra. The moment people stopped posting in Off-Topic was the starting point for the slow death of BTF. For a social platform, people need to generate content over the summer/off-comp times and talk about other things. There used to be good social commentary on here that is now non-existent and provided another reason for people to come back.


Nationals:

1. BTF's early advantage and notoriety is that its an unbiased and decentralized(we are essentially little anarchists here right?) people just posting whatever we feel like - like a bhangra reddit. There hasn't been a movement to organize something on a national scale and create either a Nationals comp, Judge reform, Dance reform, etc. As BTF isn't a content creator but actually a curator of content, you just see archives and threads on threads on threads of information stored here with little or no feedback. This is relevant because we all bitch and complain about Elite, WBBC, etc when they are proclaimed as the premier "National" comp with its "biases", etc, but don't actually make an effort as a community to create a Nationals that actually makes sense from a Formula perspective and an Organization perspective - nor will we in the short term. Which leads me to two -
2. Rather than Nationals, the BTF community should be focused around using its powers to reform and expand on existing competitions already in place/recently in place and ensure continuity by a variety of means. We all miss good older competitions (Bell, Fusion, Bayside, etc) and it was 3-4 years ago that bhangra was awesome and full of a good mix of big comps and small comps that catered to a wide variety of bhangra teams and styles. Now, as reflected by the circuit, there are less and less comps, and to keep afloat, you generally will select from the same pool of competitive dance teams to ensure success. Steps need to be taken that competitions stay afloat(tips on funding, publicity, ticket sales, etc) should be openly shared and encouraged not just with competition organizers(which is done) but teams as well to ensure that their is transparency and consistency with how teams are treated. Competitions have slipped in not only providing teams a great experience, but also getting butts into ticket seats and expanding digitally(hello livestream, internet, etc). BTF used to be a good forum to ensure that this worked out, but general apathy Anil Prasad being one glorious exception) has left the circuit barren of good competitions and good people.

 

[naishp95]

I guess this falls under judging:

What are the standards for competitions on providing teams with feedback from the day of the performance? My team just got back the point tallies (scoring sheets) from different judges, and while it may seem like that's helpful in seeing in what categories the team is lacking, there are no specifics as to how those points were given (a.k.a. what specific moments in the set dropped the team to a 9/15 instead of a 10/15). More importantly, zero notes of the performance from the day of judging were provided. Personally, I feel like to ensure transparency between judges and teams, it should be required for judges to submit notes and have those sent to the teams who performed. Going back empty-handed to a team hungry for answers on how to improve is not fun, let alone being helpful in improving the set.

 

[faizan]

search for: "Comprehensive Judging System" for best practices on judging. thanks.

 

[sdadoo15]

Going off of Ram's/Naishal's posts, here is kind of a timeline for how I think competitions should handle judging that I feel incorporates a lot of the ideas shared in this thread:

Judging Application:

- As soon as a competition knows that it is for sure happening, they need to decide a style that they are going for and *explicitly state* this in the judging application
- Competitions should seek help from the participating university's dance captains (if there is one) or local captains to help create this application and tailor it to the style of the competition.
- Judges should state their previous dance experience, including teams, previous judging experience, and what style of bhangra best suits their interests. Everyone has a favorite style, and competitions need to figure out what each judge prefers through the application.
- **The competition should accept judges based half on their previous dance/judging experience and half on the style of bhangra that they will objectively judge, even during deliberation. It is up to a competition to be able to determine this.**

Initial Judges Meeting with Captains:

- As soon as teams are accepted (hopefully 2+ months prior to the show), there should be a meeting with all accepted teams and the judges, where captains can ask anything (literally anything) and judges should be able to respond. This will be either during set creation or before set creation for most teams, so this is really a beneficial time for teams to understand what the competition is asking for and what the judges want to see.
- Will mention that one of our captains at the Burgh judges meeting tried to ask the judges what previous set from any competition they would place first at Burgh based on the rubric and their taste (an idea we got from BTF), and we were told that this was an inappropriate question to ask. Teams should be allowed to ask any questions that we feel need be answered, this is a time for us to get into the minds of the judges and they should be able to answer whatever questions we have about their taste.
- Notes should be recorded so that the competition can ensure that judges follow what they say throughout the course of the competition preparation.

The Rubric:

- A competition has in my opinion two ways of approaching this:
1.) As soon as judges are accepted, a competition should work with the judges to create a rubric that all judges agree on.
2.) After the initial judges meeting with the captains, a rubric should be created by the judges and the committee based on the conversation in this meeting. This rubric should be released as soon as possible following the meeting.

- Either way, the common trend is that a competition should not create a rubric entirely on their own or with the help of random people. The judges who are judging should have some say in the creation of each competition's rubric, which shouldn't be hard since judge's preferences will follow the competition's desires

Judges Meeting Two Weeks Before the Show:

- Any last minute questions that teams have should be answered. Hopefully this meeting isn't long.
- A committee member should be present during this meeting to ensure that judges stick to what they said in the initial judges meeting.
- Again judges should be able to answer any questions that teams have. If a competition wants to ensure complete transparency, teams should be allowed to truly understand the judges.

During the Show:

- A committee member should be with the judges and ensure that the judges are taking notes either during a performance or immediately after. Judges should have something more than number scores to present to teams following the performance, and anything that judges write down should be presented to the teams afterwards. Again: complete transparency is key.

Post Performance Judges Meeting:

- Loved Ram's idea of having all captains meet with the judges following the show so judges can quickly give a run down of placings. Think this would answer most questions that teams have and also help stimulate better conversation during the judges meeting with each team.
- I think five minutes is a good time limit for each team, anything more is going to get annoying for the 10th team who has to wait to listen to judges.
- Judges should NOT just list off things they wrote down. Teams can see this stuff afterwards and it doesn't really help us during these crucial 5 minutes. There should be conversation about overall impression, what can be improved in the future (not specifics that are written down), and also why they got the specific placing that they got. Relate our team to all other teams and explain what other teams had that our team didn't.
- JUDGES SHOULD EXPLAIN THE DELIBERATION PROCESS!
- Liked what someone mentioned about the meeting that I think 6ix did. Have a committee member, preferably a competition organizer (not a liaison), to ensure that all teams leave the meeting satisfied. If not, tack on a couple extra minutes (maybe to a maximum of 8-9 minutes?)

Sunday After the Competition:

- I'm not sure why there is ever a delay in receiving score sheets back. Judges should just give them all to a competition organizer on the competition day itself and be done with it (unless there is a reason for judges to keep them that I'm missing).
- The next day, someone should scan all score/notes sheets and return all notes back to each individual team. I like the idea of having all NUMBER SCORES (not specific teams notes) sent out to everyone. Teams should be allowed to know how many points off they were from the next team up, and again helps ensure complete transparency.

 

[mafzal]

Fantastic post, "sdadoo15"! I just sent you a PM