Shooting Spree in Mumbai

[Nikhil]

Hold on Hold on...
Faizan, I get that you're taking offense to the government of India and people that are Indian saying that terrorists could possibly be from Pakistan. While I can't prevent you from taking offense bro, I can say that its not the people representing Pakistan that are being blamed. As much as terrorists try to say that they do things in the name of a religion or even a country, they are lying to themselves, because their actions are committed for a select minority that are radical and selfish enough to think for themselves, not the majority.

Terrorists belong to no 1 religious sect or nation. They are a group of people who will stop at nothing to prove their point. The LTTE are Indians and I hate those bastards because they are terrorists committing acts against Sri Lanka. I've met a lot of sri lankans that blame Indians in general for these acts when in reality the indian government and its people do not share the same views at all.

 

[Jabar Jung]

My cousin was one of the managers at Hotel Oberoi and she was shot dead and murdered. RIP. RIP. RIP all the innocent people.


I am not blaming Pakistan or any Pakistanis , however those terrorist are said to have come from Gujrat, could be either Indian or Pakistani Gujrat. They hijacked a Raft and brought all the stuff with them and landed at Porbandar..(Edit-Koraba? port). From there they just went bizzerk and started shooting people and killing them.

More rdx was found around the the hotels, it could have been worst. They hijacked a police jeep and started shooting at random people who were standing there. (just heard they were killed by the police)

What i think is that since India's economy is booming, they wanted to create chaos, tourists will be lost, investors will not invest...economy will suffer. All the cricket matches are canceled and also created fear in all the teams. It will be very hard for BCCI to convince countries to come to India and play matches in the future.

Now the question that arises is: WHERE DID THE TERRORIST GET SO MUCH MONEY FROM? The guns they used were not ak47s well not most of them, they used M6s..I don't know the difference but it sounds like a better gun and more expensive.

I will leave you with a question, Where do you the think the terrorist got the money for all this?

 

[pritpal94]

Man this is horrible stuff.
Jabar I'm gonna try and answer your question.
I think they must be part of a big group and the group must have gathered all the money together.
Gosh I feel so sorry for those innocent people.

 

[pluthra]

One thing I dont understand about this event is why is India calling it "India's 9/11." Its a huge event but seriously Indian news needs figure out ways to really outline the event for what it is. Also, we don't even know entirely as to what type of attack this is yet. All we have are a bunch of scattered facts that we can piece together. So, claiming it to be another "9/11" would be like saying yes it is another attack by a terrorist group, who claims to fight in the name of Islam and for Muslim people- yet they have no accountability to that; and also 9/11 had a purpose behind it. The attack was on the US for a reason. This attack on India makes no sense. At first the attacks occured in an area dominated by tourists? Why are they attacking tourists? Also, it seems to be that this group has existed far before this and has executed other attacks in various areas. According to PM Singh, "It is evident that the group which carried out these attacks, based outside the country, had come with single-minded determination to create havoc in the financial capital of the country." That is just hint as to this is not the same as 9/11....9/11 had so many reasons to why it happened.

Also, if this is an attack being taken on by a religious group, they're attacking India because what? Because of how the Muslims were treated in India? I dont think any religious group has the right to talk until they evaluate what every group had to go through but then again we live in quite a selfish world that would never happen. And, I'm still trying to figure out whether this was an attack based on religion if anyone has any answers. If it was doesn't make any sense, because why are they attacking a hotel then?

Just a fact, as many people have mentioned a few documentaries about the children who take part in this...well its not about the children, but rather about what terrorist groups think when they do attack certain groups (i forgot the name of the documentary and if I remember I'll put it here)....but if you realize 9/11 they chose to attack the largest standing building in NY. In the documentary, someone explained as to how these less developed countries see these buildings as a danger to them (and the US and other modernized and developed countries can be symbolized by tall buildings that basically look down upon less developed countries)...in a way these large buildings themselves create a shadow upon those still on the ground that it basically inhibits them from growing (no light/living in darkness-can't develop)...and then again the whole idea is done in India-attack one of the most prominent buildings of Mumbai (which has been taking away from their wealth/development)

also, another thought, going back to what jabbar said about the weapons...I'm not sure as to where they get these weapons but maybe instead of putting money into attaining these weapons and spending it on creating a population of skilled people might actually help them out and they wouldn't have to engage in ways to bring others down.....besides that fact they do realize that they will run out of weapons eventually and then what are they going to do? They will come to the point where they are caught and then will have to explain what their minds were going through (hmm which then I do hope they run out of weapons soon and have to show their faces) or they shoot themselves and not have to deal with that (which will probably be the route they take)...but what will happen when they do get to that point

 

[Jabar Jung]

A) I think your perspective of 9.11 is different than mines or the medias, calling it india's 9.11. 2 perspectives, you are talking about people responsible and comparing it to 9.11. I am talking about the people attacked and comparing it to 9.11. Just imagine both situations, you are in a hotel restaurant and everything is calm, suddenly boom, your shaken up, you don't know what just happend, people are screaming, running around without any knowledge of what happend. Now bring the same situation to the u.s. you are at work, everything calm and boom, you don't know what happend. I believe they are calling it indian's 9.11 because both, the buildings of India and the U.S. represented their city. A massive amount of fear ran through people of both countries when a situation like this happend. I could be wrong but its my opinion.

B)"they're attacking India because what?" you answered you own question in the first paragraph. quote by Dr. Manmohan singh ji explains it, ""It is evident that the group which carried out these attacks, based outside the country, had come with single-minded determination to create havoc in the financial capital of the country."" They are attacking the hotels because they wanted to create fear in people's lives, 2nd) The tourism industry. Mumbai is a big tourist destination. After the attacks, i don't think any tourists are going back there soon. Most of the tourists stayed at those 2 famous hotels. Sensex will be effected, cricket which drove a lot of crowd, will be also effect the india's economy.

C) As i said before, both the buildings in india and the us were their cities symbols. india's booming economy may be hated by others, also like you said about less developed countries saw us as a danger to them.

D) Exactly, when there is money given to fight against something, intead of using it against it, they used it for it. Its a circle parul, one dies, 50 more are ready. Root of this BS should be destroyed.

Just my opinion.

 

[Chidiya]

I think by saying that it's India's 9/11 they are trying to get the world to realize how big of a deal this is because attacks similar to these have happened in the past and it seems the world didn't really care (?) And honestly, it's really not THAT hard to get weapons esp in a third world country like ours...my prayers are with everyone.

Also, the government is whack, whether its the Indian or the Pakistani government..they have their 'silent' wars and its the innocent people of both countries that suffer

 

[Summy]

This is a good conversation, but lets talk about the pakistan element. IF in fact it was a group based in pakistan, it is obvious that this group was in someway financed by the pakistan government either directly or indirectly. All the groups that I talked about before in other posts, be them the Indian Mujahideen or Lashkar Toiba, these groups are funded by the pakistani government. The fact of the matter is, and as blunt it may sounds, both sides of these conflict spend large amounts of money in this regional dispute, and pakistan chooses to fund their side of the conflict with groups that do such acts. The reports are that the group responisble (deccan mujahideen) is of either the Indian Mujahideen or Laskhar e Toiba, a kashmiri group... I posted this months ago when talking about the violence in kashmir:

"When the US's watch group came into Jammu Kashmir a little over a decade ago, they saw support for both sides. They gave acknowledgment to the fact that human rights absuses from the government of punjab and kashmir are alarming and they are on the rise, directed towards muslims. The gorup also found that there is clear evidence that the Pakistani government are funding these militants, and supporting their causes and have even sent them through military training. The UK intelligence services also showed a huge link between the Pakistani government and the militants operating there"

People want to know where the money came from? It came from Pakistan and the Pakistani government, but no doubt about that.


I am going to kind of paraphase myself and Deepak Chopra. What happened in Mumbai is something that was brewing for a long time. When you have wars on "islam" in israel, with the US/UK, in Kashmir, in Africa etc... Which are compounded by the 9/11's and the 7/7 attacks in the UK, Spain, and now mumbai... You turn moderates into extremists.

That inflamation gets organized together with the help of the government and it turns into what we saw. People posed WHY, why on foreigners... These attacks are primarily in a way directed to washington, and the "western world". These groups are being helped by washington as well. Where is money going from. When you have oil money going through the hands of pakistanis into saudi etc, these gorups who further a regional dispute will be funded, and the sad part is by the people who they are fighting against.

Pakistan is quickly becoming a failed state. A failed pakistan is dire for India. Pakistan is becoming a state that is the breeding grounds of which this terror occurs. With Musharraf the terrorist had somewhat of a leash because of musharraf commitment to the western leaders, and consequently India, but with Musharraf gone, Pakistan is political choas has allowed gorups like these to get money into their hands and use it for such acts.

It is not enough for zidari to say, I condem these attacks, like Chopra said, it is time for him and the governemnt to put an end to this stuff, however, where does the power lie, obviously in India's hand.

Like Chopra said, the "war on terrorism" is an oxymoron. It is perspective, to some people, war is terrorism. You need countries and leaders willing to fight against these groups.


When these events occured in Africa in the 90's, it was not as big as it is today, why? Because the terrorist have set their sights on bigger countries. When it happen in Africa, Phillipines, Malaysia, nobody cared. But when you hit the US, UK, Spain and India, the world will be less willing to turn their head away from corruption like Pakistan funding these groups. The more the link is made and the more it gets into public, the harder it becomes for the goverment of pakistan to hide from their connections.

I am not blaming this on pakistanis or pakistan themselves, but you must understand if you see this event as negative, you must be a player in reality, and realize the acts were well coordinated, well planned out, and got a huge amount of money from a country that is quickly becoming a burden rather than an asset to the world community.

 

[Vick]

Summy you said earlier that you don't think that India should take the route the U.S. did after 9/11, and now you say that India needs to put an end to this.... What exactly can India do if they find out that the terrorist are indeed from Pakistan? Nuke the living hell out of Pakistan? India is far superior to Pakistan in military might, but we all know that India cant exactly go drop bombs on Pakistan without starting World War 3.... India is in such a difficult position and I'm not exactly sure what they can do... Hell I don't know what the world can do with Pakistan right now... Pakistan is a country with nuclear weapons, god forbid they fall into the hands of extremist, we all know where those weapons are headed if they do fall into the wrong hands... I have nothing against the people of Pakistan, but that country has some serious issues and the government isnt doing shit about it...

 

[pluthra]

I am not blaming this on pakistanis or pakistan themselves, but you must understand if you see this event as negative, you must be a player in reality, and realize the acts were well coordinated, well planned out, and got a huge amount of money from a country that is quickly becoming a burden rather than an asset to the world community.

Hey summy, dont you think calling them a "burden to the world community" is a bit harsh? Isn't it this same attitude that lends to their demise? It goes back to the concept of the developed countries being those towers and blocking the light from these less developed countries and thus inhibiting them from growing. If you call them a "burden" there just going to lend themselves to that mentality and not try to do anything better....(its like taking a kid and telling them they are a bad kid...the kid could try to become good, but you always have it your mind they are bad so they're going to subvert to commiting bad acts). Pakistan has made steps towards establishing themselves among the top nations but they haven't gotten far. Now they're just seen as a "burden"? If they can't become better and people are going to see them as a burden what they're obviously going to do is hurt other people to show them the pain that they have to go b/c of this established hatred against them. And this isn't just with Pakistan, these seems to be everywhere. It's like ok this country is loaded with problems and there's absolutely nothing we can do to help them so why not just forget about them. Its this attitude that is going to make people within countries leash out their anger against others. Sure, this idea is overly optimistic but its a whole lot better than calling countries a "burden" or useless or troublesome.

 

[Vick]

Parul, Pakistan has taken billions of U.S. dollars to fight the war on terror within Pakistan, and nothing has happened...We supply Pakistan with the arms and ammunition, the money, the intelligence and yet the government hasn't figured it out... There is a part of north west Pakistan(Wazirastan?) that is loaded with training camps and terrorist, the world knows this, yet the Pakistani forces continue to sit on their asses... This can not continue to happen... Trust me, the U.S. will not forget about Pakistan, that will be a grave mistake. If Pakistan is neglected, it's pretty much going to turn into another Afghanistan, run by war lords and crazy extremist...

 

[Summy]

First off Parul, I didnt mean their existence is a burden in the world, I mean their inaction is becoming a burden. Haha, I can see why you took it that way, but I meant that the way their money is being distributed and the underground workings that are leading to the protection of key Al Qaeda leaders and the funding of key terror cells is hurting the safet of the world community. Pakistan used to have problems with that stuff, but they kept it in check. There were parts of the ISI that wouldnt have allowed stuff like the mumbai massacare to happen. These were concidently something that Bhutto wanted to bring back, thats why her death was such a crushing blow. Pakistan was a key contributor to the world community and the safety of the world in many ways, but now their lack of stability is becoming troublesome and they are now one of the central breeding grounds for extremism.

Vick,
what is the EXACT opposite of what the US did. Better yet, what did the US do? They bombed Afghanistan right? Threw that country into the depths of poverty and left it for the world community to clean up the mess. Then with the same fear provoking rheotric, they went into Iraq a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and used the fear assoicated with the world on terror to drive that country into civil war. They ignonred the funds being transfered from the paksitan intelligence service to Atta, they ignored the fact that all but 3 of the hijackers were Saudi, they ignored all of that and used the tragedy to further political gains. India cannot do that. Military violence put US into the hole it is in today.

India needs to extend a hand to pakistan right now, and needs to work with them. Pakistan has to stop shooting the shit (they must have a reason why they can stop, ie-pressure from other nations) and pretend that they are not funding these groups, because everyone in the world knows it, and the more 9/11's, 7/7's and mumbai attacks happen, the more people with shine a light into their activites. Now is NOT time for a "response", it is time for cooperation. Now is a time where the India government must cohert, and use the international outrage and response to these attacks and put political and social pressure of Paksitan to clean their activites up. Pakistan cannot condemn the attack and not be held to any standard of practice. They must be transparent with their connections and these must ask india, what they can do to help. Right now, when in Paksitan basically a blank check is written to those who get their hands on it, there is no telling what funds are going where.

Pakistan is in a transition right now, social and political, and the mujahideen groups are taken advantage. The next government which can stabilize the country, they need to end this stuff, and part themselves from this insane ideological struggle because they can be a very influential nation.

Look at the stuff they did when they took the first step, NOT india, to cleaning up the mess in Kashmir. Pakistan took the first step to descalating the tensions after the attack on the Indian parliament. They are a capable society and country and have the ability to send these extremists elsewhere however this transition of power is killing their capability to prove to the world their distance from these extremists. Thats what I mean by burden, they went from a capable leader, to a liability in the war not on "terror", because thats perspective, and I am not in the game of right v wrong, but on the ending of this insane violence of innocents being massacred. This is distnct to OUR time because before it would be armed forces that are attacked, or government buildings but today its shopping malls, and hospitals.

India needs to do the opposite of US, and sit and hammer out an agreement so both sides can see that these acts are hamrful to both nations. As we saw in the US, using such a national tragedy to further political power ended up hurting the US in the end because like I said, their actions in the middle east turned moderates to extremists. What India needs to do is take a cooperational approach to this, and to use again the international outrage to weeding out the institutions of the pakistani government that are helping these groups. Learn from the US India, please, and use you leverage and the spotlight on the pakistani agencies to your advantage.

 

[Vick]

Summy, just to point something out, India has never really been the aggressor in the India-Pak relationship... For the most part talks with Pakistan have failed, the wars have been nothing but disastrous for both nations... India is pretty much screwed either way... I'm sure India will take the diplomatic route, even though Gujarat CM pretty much blamed this whole thing on Pakistan, but I don't really see anything come out of the talks... Pakistan will condemn these attacks, India will listen, shit will happen again in about 8-12 months.... We've been seeing this pattern for years...

 

[faizan]

I say we all wait to see some official reports before we go and blame Pakistan, that's all I'm saying.

Furthermore, I think it's time that India come to grips with the fact that there is Muslim militancy in India, being supported by Indian Muslims...i smell a ton of denial.

 

[Somi]

there is Muslim militancy in India, being supported by Indian Muslims..

^ true
Sad to say but Pakistani cant stop bombing within Pakistan how can they find time to attack other countries.

 

[Kamran786]

Horrible. 78 people dead, 200 injuried... well coordinated attack, probably a bigger group like the indian mujhadeen. Here is the news updates live:

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/video_streaming.php

The attacks were in a very wealthy, up scale part of the city which will probably drive panic and grief throughout the nation and especially throughout mumbai and the surrounding area. In today's world, really, nobody is safe. It can happen in delhi, punjab, mumbai, or even a smaller area, you never know.

Apprently there is fighting still going on with the police in the Taj hotel. I heard from that live news feed that hospitals and schools were attacked too. I think everyone has to remain optimisitc that something like that did not happen, its still early and indian news always over kills everything in the beginning.

Indian Mujahideen, what a oxymoronic group.

 

[Kamran786]

I say we all wait to see some official reports before we go and blame Pakistan, that's all I'm saying.

Furthermore, I think it's time that India come to grips with the fact that there is Muslim militancy in India, being supported by Indian Muslims...i smell a ton of denial.

For sure. I am praying its not some group from Pakistan. Pakistan does have its problems. But India surely does too. With that said we truly can't make a judgement until there are official and accurate reports made about this event.

 

[Jeeti]

Although it is way too early to blame Pakistan...given the long history of indo pak problems, the fact that the boat took off from Karachi is more than enough to convince Indians already harboring anti-pak feelings that Pakistanis were responsible. Why would an Indian militant group leave from a port in Pakistan? Just a thought..again, it is too early to blame. My biggest fear is that retaliation occurs prior to a full investigation...in Manmohan Singh's press conference yesterday, he seemed to imply that the terrorists may have been Pakistani, which I don't think he should have done until they fully understand what is going on....India is at a crossroads...it has not been stable lately...and let's keep in mind that the pakistani and indian government entities are very different from some of the groups in the region and retaliation may occur regardless of government involvement.

Summy, If these were Indian Mujahadeen, they should probably straighten that out before discussing anything with Pakistan.

 

[pritpal94]

I just heard that they killed 5 hostages.
This is really horrible.

 

[Waleed]

there is Muslim militancy in India, being supported by Indian Muslims..

^ true
Sad to say but Pakistani cant stop bombing within Pakistan how can they find time to attack other countries.

My prayers & support are with the citizens of Mumbai, the families of those affected and the people of India - the loss of innocent lives is truly sad and very tragic.

I think no one paid attention to Somia's post and she said something that is key. I've never doubted that the ISI (Pakistan's intelligence agency) had definitely sponsored and supported militant groups such as the Lashkar-e-Toiba, Sipah-e-Sahaba and Lashkar-e-Omar in the past but in the past 5 years, official support & funding for these groups has most certainly stopped.

Pakistan has lost over 5000 civilian lives since 9/11. That's right 5,000 fathers,mothers,brothers & sisters who were completely innocent and were killed by .. you guessed it...terrorists. Over 130 Pakistani civilians were just killed in the first attack on Bhutto (when she arrived). The current President of Pakistan, do you know how his wife died? Do you know how many times the terrorists tried to kill Musharraf? I shudder when people float the notion that Pakistani's are sitting on the other side of the border snickering and celebrating this awful incident. NOT TRUE. The past 5 years have changed the way your average Pakistani views terrorism, since so many have been families have been hit by it.

So let's please not think that the Pakistani government is directly supported these attacks - maybe in the past, definitely not now. The Pakistani government has been the biggest loser because of these attacks, no one wants to invest in Pakistan, our economy is collapsing and people are not happy. The people voted Asif Zardari in to power, a man who openly stated that he wants to crush terrorists and end all terrorism. These militants groups are now possibly supported by old ex-ISI retired generals or can even be a group of fanatics who are truly independent. Even the oldest and most staunchest supporter of the militants (Pakistan Army) has withdrawn almost all support as these militants have been killing and beheading Pakistani soldiers since the war in Afghanistan started.

These terrorists are now a completely isolated group and right now is the best time for Pakistan and India to share resources and crush them once and for all. Pakistan has pledged to send the head of the ISI (first time in history) to share information with Indian intelligence. It's time to work together.

Lets please not play in to the old politics of 'blame India, blame Pakistan', if we do that, the biggest winners are the terrorists. These militants might possibly have received support and resources from Pakistan but they definitely don't have the support of the Pakistani people or the government.

 

[Summy]

I really want to ask where the heck do people think the "indian" mujahideen are getting their funds from. Their funds are coming from Pakistan, they are affliated with Pakistan, they are trained in Pakistan. These mujahideen be them the INdian, the Laksha or any other are ones that are funded by the government and the population of Pakistan. Look past the name. I have been writing about the Kashmir conflict for years, and mentioned all these groups before. The US and other watch dog groups did so many investigations and they have found pakistans hand behind all of this.

I was watching IBN, CNN indian partner and they basically outlined the whole conversation between the two foreign ministers in India and Pakistan. To paraphase, basically the Indian foreign minister, Pranab Mukherjee called the Pakistani minster Qureshi at a time when Qureshi was at a social event. Apparently, Mukherjee told Qureshi that he needed to talk to him right now, and Qureshi said that he would arrange a call later on, and is aware of the situation and sends his conolescences and so forth to the people of India. (this is as reported by pakistan media who were @ the event). Mukherjee apperently said basically get your ass into a another room we are doing this shit right now. He told him that Pakistan is forcing the hand of the international community. That they are walking on very very thin ice, and especially with the state that Pakistan is in today, it would easy for India to stop the terorrist groups for them, if they dont want to stop it themselves.


I saw that Faizan and Somia want to wait for "official" reports. I am not sure what official reprots they are waiting for, when the PM of India, all media outlets including western outlets are indicating that it was Pakistan behind the attacks. From personal research and from common sense, I can tell you that the Indian Mujahideen, the Lashkar and other groups are directly funded by pakistan, and these are the groups that, themselves may be claiming responisbility. Waleed, its not about "blaming" one country or another, its about holding the people responsible for the actions they have committed. Despite the traegdies in Pakistan, despite what Zidari has said, there has been NO change in the actions of the paksitani government and their transfer of funds to these groups that are carrying out such acts.

In the Kashmir conflict, I believe both sides are wrong, India and Paksitan. But Pakistan has pushed their underground workings too far. They crossed the line in the recent decade, and they are walking on REALLY thin ice. Their futures are in the hands of the people they attack. Whether it is the government keeping terrorists in isolation assoicated with bombings in Spain, UK and 9/11, or whether it is supporting the terrorists who carried out these attacks, and other bombings in India, Pakistan cant hide from their assoications any more. For a long time it was, "lets pretend what is happening isnt really happening, for the sake of politics or image". But it is no longer that case, especially after these attacks.

IBN says that these terrorists trained in Kashmir, learned tactics in Karachi, and had weapons from sources in Pakistan. Nobody is trying to deny the Indian Mujahideen doesnt exist, but those people would be wrong if they dont think the Indian intelligence agencies know every move, or dont keep an eye of those guys. The only way something like this could have been pulled off is if the people from without, and support from without. The indian intelligence has messed up before but to allow such as attack, every single country in the world has the intelligence to stop it from within.

I think its abouot time for paksitanis to stand up against the actions and relations of their government rather than claiming what many have been claiming for the last few decades. The "terrorists" Waleed that are attacking within Pakistan have ideological Pakistan's interest in their mind. Those who killed Bhutto, attempted to Killed Musharaff, they have their interest in mind. This is a different attack, an attack on India, and their people. You have to realize by merely claiming that the same thing happens in Pakistan gives a false picture of where these terrorist groups stand.

I support PM Singh in no matter what he decides to do. I may not agree with it personally, but he chooses to capatilize on Paksitans current state and military attack key targets in Pakistan, or force the international hand of countries who also have pointed at Pakistan as the agressor , and hot bed for most terrorist activity, I can say that I would defintely understand why they did so.

Despite what Waleed said, I can tell you, and the world will tell you soon, that these terrorist groups are NOT isolated groups. Isolated groups rarely have the capability to pull off such an attack. They are well funded and well trained in military tactics. By the least, Pakistan intelligence agencies must have known of a planning of attacks, and in all likelihood had the biggest hand in the attacks.