Shooting Spree in Mumbai

[Vick]

MODS please chill, people like Faizan need to see the world in a different light... Just like Pakistan needs international pressure to step up their game, Faizan needs the publics help to see that nearly 200 people lost their lives, yet he has yet to utter a word of remorse... His defense of Pakistan comes across something like this, "We didn't do it, who cares if 200 people died, but we werent a part of it, Pakistan couldn't have possibly done it, oh no, not Pakistan"... Maybe he should research the news coming out before he jumps to such conclusions... Summy and I have pointed out what the terrorist themselves have said, perhaps Faizan can provide some insider Pakistan intelligence that proves otherwise... It's people like Faizan that make Pakistani's look bad... Keep living in this delusional world of yours where all is well in the world and the LeT is funded by the United States and Canada or someshit...

 

[Summy]

MODS please chill, people like Faizan need to see the world in a different light... Just like Pakistan needs international pressure to step up their game, Faizan needs the publics help to see that nearly 200 people lost their lives, yet he has yet to utter a word of remorse... His defense of Pakistan comes across something like this, "We didn't do it, who cares if 200 people died, but we werent a part of it, Pakistan couldn't have possibly done it, oh no, not Pakistan"... Maybe he should research the news coming out before he jumps to such conclusions... Summy and I have pointed out what the terrorist themselves have said, perhaps Faizan can provide some insider Pakistan intelligence that proves otherwise... It's people like Faizan that make Pakistani's look bad... Keep living in this delusional world of yours where all is well in the world and the LeT is funded by the United States and Canada or someshit...

He wont get it. Its wont hit him, because Faizan back from POL keeps his nationalistic notions ruling his mind. I guess when he sees young people being carried through the streets with flowers over their body and their lifeless bodies being gripped by their family members, he wouldnt be so focused on being "blaming" pakistanis.

Faizan is not representative of Pakistanis, he is the nationalistic ideologues who listen to their grandparents/ parents of how stupid/ ignorant indians are. The new generation of pakistanis are disgusted by these attacks and any slight involvement with pakistan, they are more than willing to support Indians in their fight against the killing of innocents.

The problem is that Faizans first reaction was "Blaming Pakistan, shocking". Like, are you for real? He is the most ultimate bigot, and idiot. Your initial reaction ois usually what gages your emotions. To have someone think of their national pride before humanity is the most ignorant thing ive seen in a long time.

Went on SP and sent this convo to some pakistani bloggers, and they themselves have said that Faizan needs to stop listening to his parents and realize the death of an innocent no matter from what country is horrible.

He will say, I feel remorse, but his first words about the attacks were disgusting. Sorry Fiazan its not another notch, or AHH WHILE another example of pakistan vs india, this is when innocents were killed and the may haved been trained or sponsored by another country. I couldnt believe what I read when I saw that, and I still cant believe that the FIRST thing you said to BTF regarding these events.

 

[Vick]

Faizan,

GPS info about boats leaving from Pakistan:
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/mumbaiterrorstrike/Election_Story.aspx?ID=NEWEN20080074497&type=News

Pakistani Terrorist talking about blowing up the Taj:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Terrorists_had_plan_to_blow_up_Taj/articleshow/3772323.cms

Karachi Communication:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/FullcoverageStoryPage.aspx?id=f7eb0c17-20bb-42c4-b7c5-8c4422e80e11_Special&MatchID1=4858&TeamID1=1&TeamID2=5&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1224&MatchID2=4862&TeamID3=9&TeamID4=8&MatchType2=2&SeriesID2=1225&PrimaryID=4858&Headline=Six+days+ago+they+took+rooms+at+Taj+hotel%2c+stocked+up

I think it's pretty obvious now...

 

[Waleed]

Summy,Vick I understand what you guys are trying to convey. I respect your opinion and understand your frustration. I truly do.

The Pakistani government has supported these militants since the insurgency started in 1995 but government support for these militants started decreasing after 9/11 and I believe that it officially came to halt after the militants started executing Pakistani troops and killing Pakistani civilians post-2003.

All top dogs in the Pakistani government from the President to the Prime Minister to the head of the ISI and chief of the Army have strongly condemned the militants and have taken strong action against them (even receiving criticism from the Pakistani public on being too harsh - too much collateral damage in NWFP).

However, I am not ruling out that these militants could have received funding from elements in Pakistan and ex-ISI members. I wouldn't be surprised if they were trained in Pakistan but I highly doubt that they were trained by the Pakistani government. Any sort of support they received was not endorsed or provided by the highest levels of Pakistan's current government. The biggest loser in all of this Pakistan, it makes no strategic or tactical sense for the Pakistani government to support such terrible acts.

This a great opportunity for both countries to come together, collaborate and crush these militants once and for all. I hope for all our sake that the peace process continues and both countries share their resources instead of continuing the old politics of finger pointing and cutting off relations.

 

[jvirk]

This a great opportunity for both countries to come together, collaborate and crush these militants once and for all. I hope for all our sake that the peace process continues and both countries share their resources instead of continuing the old politics of finger pointing and cutting off relations.

very nicely put waleed

 

[Kamran786]

Damn. I can certainly feel the love in this thread.

Heres the thing. Terrorists attacked Mumbai. If they are from Pakistan, unfortunately they may need some foreign help in catching these guys whether it be financially,strategically,physically,etc.

Its fairly simple. If a person has a problem or an illness you've got to fix it from the root with or without the help of others.
Within Pakistan there is a significant problem, the illness perse. It needs to be fixed from the root, possibly with the help of others.

Personally, I sympathize for those under attack and I think countries with these militant problems need to fix their problems. But I am more worried about my own country, the U.S.A. than the well-being of another country. Its seems selfish, but its just my rule of thumb. Help yourself before you help others. My country can't properly help other countries until we help ourselves first. Therefore I don't think I could be as passionate as the rest of you guys on this topic.

But I hope I was able to simplify this for you somewhat.

 

[Arjun Barua]

Moderator's Note: Let us keep this discussion on the issues and not on the people involved in the discussion. If you wish to issue a rebuttal, please do so without name-calling and finger-pointing. It will strengthen your argument and your character. If a moderator has to intervene again in this thread, punitive action will be taken. Thank you all for your cooperation.

 

[Summy]

If a moderator has to intervene again in this thread, punitive action will be taken. .

Haha. I think you need to re-word that, it only aggrevates the situation.

Like I said, this is the time India and Pakistan needs to share intellgience and needs to further their relationship. The government of pakistan, and I am not taking about the governing body, but the institutions that have supported Kashmiri fighters for decades have much to gain from an unstable india, and a struggle indian tourist economy.

The single most aspect of the situation that has always aggrevated both sides is that both fail to acknowledge their wrong doings. Even though adbundant evidence has shown that Pakistani governemtnal agencies funded kashmiri terrorists, they dont ackowledge it. Even though evidence has shown it, India doesnt claim any wrong doings by their army in Kasmhir.

First, people have to realize you have become transparent, BOTH sides, because india is just as guilty as pakistan is any wrong doings. But it really annoys me when people dont want to understand that there is a hand by their nation, and again the admitting to no wrong doings is what aggrevates the situation.

I wish Indians could realize that what we do in Kashmir by our government is what drives people to do such acts in Mumbai. We treat them like 3rd class citizens and it drives them to actions like this. In pakistan, the governmental agencies have funded Kashmiri rebels before, and if this group is of Kashmir decent, then it is no wild to think the Pakistani government didnt have some sort of hand in this. Not saying they planeed the attacks, but the money needed for training and other operations may have come from areas high up.

If people want I can attached some documents that show Pakistans involvement in Kashmiri groups. There is a long history that people must understand and cant just say I dont think this and that, theseaffliations are long driven.

 

[Arjun Barua]

I wish Indians could realize that what we do in Kashmir by our government is what drives people to do such acts in Mumbai. We treat them like 3rd class citizens and it drives them to actions like this.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\11\28\story_28-11-2008_pg1_4

 

[Waleed]

The single most aspect of the situation that has always aggrevated both sides is that both fail to acknowledge their wrong doings. Even though adbundant evidence has shown that Pakistani governemtnal agencies funded kashmiri terrorists, they dont ackowledge it. Even though evidence has shown it, India doesnt claim any wrong doings by their army in Kasmhir.

Good point. I think the Pakistani government has been stubborn and looks even more idiotic when it tries to act like they had 0% involvement in the Kashmiri insurgency. The ISI no doubt helped organize and fund these militant groups in the past and caused much grief and pain across the border.

However, I feel that in the past 5 years, the actors have changed and the source of funding & resources is not the Pakistani government. I am not ruling out elements within the government who could have diverted funds without the leadership's approval - Summy, you're right, there are still people within Pakistan's elite that would like to see India struggle and undergo such horrible acts of violence. But let us not confuse these fanatics with Pakistan's democratically elected government and most importantly the Pakistani people - I've spoken with a lot of my friends and family in Pakistan and believe me the mood over there is very sad and somber.

Please read the last 2 paragraphs from this article, I think we will see more information like this starting to emerge. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081127/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan_india_shooting

 

[Somi]

People please realize that Pakistan itself is being attacked day by day. Tourist areas like Mauree, Swath, Kalam that are near Kashmir are not worthy of going because of attacks. Just not there, most recent--- Karachi - 11 cars were torched [today]...Lahore -World Performing Art Festival had 3 bomb blast [November] and Islamabad - the Marriott [September]. These are just a few...so many more happen
Im not here to defend Pakistan or anything. As a Paki its just hard to believe it. Like Kamran said "My country can't properly help other countries until we help ourselves first." im going twist his words and say Pakistani govt cant handle its own problem of terrorism and thinking that they will plan [or fund] this. I maybe wrong just my thought

 

[Summy]

Waleed, your right, we have a concensus on that. The government is such a large entity, so I am not necessarily claiming the wrong doing of the entire govenrment. I think that ZIdari's government had nothing to do with this obviously, but more importantly probably would have done something to stop this had he known because it perpetuates the on going violence at home and abroad. HOWEVER, there are parts of the government, be them the ISI, GHF and other elements in which funds, training and other things can be recieved to these terrorists. Information, including ID's found on the terrorists show they are all paksitani residents and mostly students, and they all live and reside in pakistan, so that expert was off on that.

Believe me with Indian intellgence getting criticism after the diwali bombings in Delhi, they would have been much more vigliant to such an attack, it had to be done from without. Funding had to come from without, and because of the large scale, the training had to be done somwhere else. Facts are showing that they trained first in Kashmir, then marine training in Karachi.

Pakistan has elements within their government that are at war with each other, hence the political unstability. There is a large part of the government that saw what happened in Mumbai at the worst thing for Pakistan. India and Pakistan relations were at a height, they were cooperating more and more when it came to the economy and trade, things were looking up. THis is the worst thing to happen to a unstable pakistan. However, there is also a large part of Pakistani elite who see India as a threat. Whose ideologies still go back to 71, and the wars after. Who for them a strong India, be it economically, or politicaly, inherently means a weak pakistan. A lot of the economic riches of India are key for Pakistani interests, so having Indias economy boom while pakistans goes down, in some pakistani minds, may have DIRE condequences when it comes to Kashmir.

I talked to a old professor of mine who is a very knowledgable women about these issues. She told me, that a weak India in some pakistanis mind means a continued debate over kashmir. If India continues to climb, and paksitan continues to decend, Kashmiri folk would economically be more willing to vote in favour of joining India and Pakistan may loose whatever right they have to be in Kashmir.


Pakistan's social sect is made of SO many people with contrasting ideologies. For you somia to say, well they bomb us, we couldnt want to bomb others, you forget its not an A vs B war in Pakistan.

I disagree about the funding still not being from the pakistani government in the last 5 years. I still think that there was funding going on in Kashmir, but maybe to a lesser extent. Musharaff was a leash for these militant groups in Kashmir, and he didnt want escalated violence because he knew his ties to India and western peace were at the pakistanis best interests. He thought that even if the government can avoid this seemingly ideological war it would be beneficial. Once he went, once his power went, those militants were able to roam free. Its not a coincidence more violence has errupted in India after he was gone then during his tenture for the most part.



The thing I hate in a time like this is nationalistic pride. I have to admit, it hurts me heart more when I see an indian funeral procession then maybe a christan one, because I cant help it. I think about the people of my country, those are my people. I cant stand to watch the indian news coverage of the dead bodies with their eyes closed of 20 something year olds, and 30 something year olds and their mothers gripping them. It kills me. Thats humanity though. When people start saying stuff like "OH DONT BLAME PAKISTAN", and " NICE WAY TO BLAME US", its SO insensitive, and so blatently delibertly hurtful, it enrages me.

Your right about one thing, MANY pakistanis, are so sadden at this. In particular one friend who wanted the head of any government official in pakistan who had a hand in this said to me, he couldnt wake up in the morning. It effected him deeply and his family, because they are humans. Many pakistanis are beyond sadden and disgusted at the fact that these people were possibly assisted by people back home, and there is no doubt in my mind of that. Its when the pride for your nation steps beyond caring for innocent lives being slaughtered is when you need to step back and evaluate your life.

 

[Temurzai]

Summy i don't wana continue my part in the discussion on a public forum, but pM me. my uncle says ISI are NOT going to india. and here u go.

taken from --->>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7757031.stm


....He pledged that intelligence officials would fully co-operate with the Indian investigation but added that the country's intelligence chief would not travel to India as earlier reported, something he called a "miscommunication".....

(13th 'paragraph' down in that article)

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

So I am watching the Headlines Today channel on Dish and they are pretty much layin' the smackdown and blaming Pakistan ISI for this. According to the the interrogation of the terrorist they caught (From Faridkot, Pakistan Punjab ;-( ) He said that ISI trained 15-20 men in firearms and 12-18 months in aquatic warfare in Karachi. Now they got this info after interrogating the kid, and we all know that sometimes under interrogation people will say anything. But this does not look good, and what is worse is when this info is fed into the media and aired. Now people who wanted a reason to believe Pakistan was behind this have it.

 

[Varun]

To people being offended by Pakistani links to the attack, there may be one piece of solace for you all. The accusations are currently being pointed at the ISI, not the Pakistani government. Anyone who follows Pakistani politics is aware that the ISI is unanswerable to anyone...its almost like its own parallel government. They have carried out a shit load of things against the Pakistani government's interests like military coups, assasinations of politicians (Bhutto's family and maybe even Bhutto herself), and most recently, they orchestrated the bombing of the Indian embassy in Afghanistan. So we already see that they are like a secret police that does not represent the Pakistani government or Pakistani people. Nonetheless, they need to be stopped by the government.

 

[Saab]

All I am going to say on this matter is that I had family and family friends who lived in Mumbai and keep telling me about the conflicting emotions of the people in the city, how it feels like it is to be a citizen. I hope and pray that their will be no riots. I think, what the people of India, Pakistan, and all of us here and in America need to gain is some perspective. What we cant do is put blame, but rather unite and walk forward. Maybe its just from watching CNN Heroes, but one lady said it best when she said "Making the world a better place is all about respect, fairness, and giving second chances." If anything we should look past laying the blame and look forward at what we could do to stop this from happening again. This is not about what caused a tragedy, or how it was incurred, but what steps need to happen now. Look forward and not back.

 

[Summy]

So I am watching the Headlines Today channel on Dish and they are pretty much layin' the smackdown and blaming Pakistan ISI for this. According to the the interrogation of the terrorist they caught (From Faridkot, Pakistan Punjab ;-( ) He said that ISI trained 15-20 men in firearms and 12-18 months in aquatic warfare in Karachi. Now they got this info after interrogating the kid, and we all know that sometimes under interrogation people will say anything. But this does not look good, and what is worse is when this info is fed into the media and aired. Now people who wanted a reason to believe Pakistan was behind this have it.

Yep, saw that as well, and doesnt suprise me. The fact of the matter is Varun is that the ISI is exactly what is wrong with pakistani politics. They are under government control, and they should have an obligation to answer to the government. Also the ISI is not as wild as you think. They recieve funding from the paksitani government obviously, and thus the government should know where their money is going. It is not unknown to the pakistani government that the ISI funds these militants, and attacks such as in afghanistan and other places is what they do. Why continue to fund them?

I have my whole life the situation behind the Kashmiri conflict and Indo-Pak relations. If marine training came from the ISI, then the government of pakistan in my opinion would have broke the camels back. You tell me why would the ISI fund these terrorists but "fight" terrorism is Afghanistan?

The ISI continues to be funded, after all the relations with India. They funded and armed khalistani militants and basic was responsible for th length of terrorism in punjab. They have a huge history of attacking indian innocents, tell me why would the government of paksitan continue to deploy these fighters and give them such autonomy? Its a group that fights against India but a group that holds back peace relations as well.

Something that wikipedia wont tell you is that the ISI is a intregral part of the Pakistani government. I think now people who either try to separate and distance the ISI from the government or claim that the ISI was not involved. Its so sad because no wants to admitt their wrong doing in this conflict. The sad thing is, there are parts of the ISI that are good, and were at one point members of a coalition to stop this stuff.

Saab, in order to walk forward and insure this never happens again, it needs to be understtod where this attack came from. Emotionality is such a huge story and important but it would be horrible if we immeresed ourselves in our emotions and not make sure our future wont comprise of such acts.

 

[Saab]

I understand that part Summy, I jut feel that we are past that right now. We spent the past four pages discussing this and I think we can now start into a discussion about what to do about the future of security in india, the mood of the city and possibility of riots, and what type of impact this will have in Indias internal affairs as well its relations between countries such as Pakistan and the US.

 

[Summy]

Well I think that Manmohan Singh, in my opinion the best PM the country has ever had, and personally a great inspiration of mine, said it the best going foward:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na0h8_CosIY

What people in Mumbai are going through right now must be undescribable. When you cant leave your house in a democracy, it must be a sickening feeling. India's intelligence is at a crossroads. Right now, India's biggest threat is from Islamic militants. If both Pakistan and India want to stop not only the influence of these militants but their ability to carry out such attacks, I think they need to work together. The closet thing we had to a resolution in Kashmir is a ceasfire and some autonomy for the kashmiri and jammu people. I think there needs a resolution there that will at least stop the violence there.

The riots might be scary and the thing that I am most afraid about. The last thing you want to happen is 200 innocents being killed and then another hundred or so innocent muslims being killed. Manmohan Singh is no Rajiv Gandhi though, I think India looses a lot of credibility and sympathy is they allow the riots to reach high levels. Obviously it will impossible to stop each and every person but they need to control it.

The relations with Pakistan took a big hit. I think what Pakistan wants from India is simple. They need cooperation and they need the cease fire in Kashmir to ensure they can keep a leash on these militants. What India wants from Pakistan is clear. They need transperency, and they need accountability. To say to a country, sorry our intelligence agency has gone wild, oh well, its not us, is not acceptable. They need to control their institutions and they need to stop funding these militants. The funding wont stop but if Zidari (a person I am hopeful about) can really understand how these violent attacks hurts their country more in their unstable state rather than help, he does have the comprehensive power to stop it.

If the attack happened lets say 8 years ago, its a different story. Its a military response from India and probably in Kashmir. Given the situation of pakistan today and the terrorists they are against the ideals of the government right now, they cant deal with a military operation of such porportions. They have no option but to cooperate, and India has no option either.


The people of Mumbai, wow, what can I say. How awful it must be to wake up to the sounds of funeral processions for 200+ people and counting. I mean to be in a HOSPITAL BED, and be held hostage, I cant even think about it. The shift in terror is remarkable. Violence is reality, but to where the violence has reached in something new. Who is being hurt is what is the worst part.

 

[Shahzaib Khan]

[...Lahore -World Performing Art Festival had 3 bomb blast






there were actually 4...and i was there..it was terrible...