Sikhi

[Sonuu]

[size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt]WARNING: THIS THREAD MAY BE VERY OFFENSIVE TO SOME, AND MAY CAUSE A LOT OF DRAMA. BEWARE!!!!!!!!!![/size][/size][/size]

As far as I know, the caste system was forbidden by sikhism because under the sikh faith, we are all created as equals and no such system should exist. What do you guys feel about Sikh's that consider themselves Jatt, or Khatri, or Pappa..etc? Personally i disagree with it completely and feel that you can be one or the other, not both. if you consider yourself as part of a caste, you are not a sikh. if you are a sikh, you are not part of any caste and considering yourself part of one is forbidden. What do you guys think?


I know im going to get A LOT of hate for this but its a topic that i find very interesting and sadly controversial. i wanna make sure that im not wrong also. don't bash me for it and if you really want to cause drama, keep it to the PM's because this topic, as everyone knows, is very delicate.

 

[AmyDee]

i dont give a rats behind.My sister married out of caste,my dad forbids it though.i asked about that being in the granth sahib he had no answer.There is a BIG HUGE contradiction when it comes to culture and religion in sikhism.

 

[H.S.]

Well, to be precise Sikhism is a religion only.

Culture has lil to do with religion from my perspective. Most likely if ur family originated from punjab, doesn't matter if ur Sikh Hindu etc, u believe in the caste system. Hindus have the Brahmans, dilits, etc.

Just so happens that more Sikhs than Hindus came out of Punjab/still live there so ppl now use punjabi culture as a synonm for the Sikh religion and thus point a finger at the Sikhs for the caste system.

Unfortunately although one calls himsel/herself a Sikh, their most likely just a punjabi/punjaban that follows the caste system.

But yes, the caste system needs to be dissolved especially cause it's evolving. For ex jatt used to me farmer, now means surrey jack....


FYI, 3:1am just got back from work ANC typing on iPhone ignore grammer. Thx

 

[Sohaj]

I personally don't have any problems with Sikhs considering themselves to be Jatt, Khatris etc. Being a Jatt, for example, is part of that person's history, its where you came from. Its illogical, in my eyes, to dismiss that obvious fact about yourself. Sikhism also states that men and women should be treated equally...that doesn't mean that there is no distinction between them (for those who are not aware...females have vaginas and males have penises...huge difference). The problem arises when one caste (or gender) claims superiority over other. That is strictly prohibited and something that never really made any sense to me. I am a Jatt but I don't think being a Jatt makes me better than others.

Not trying to hog your topic....but, how many people think that its okay to marry someone out of your caste but would not entertain the thought of marrying someone from another skin color? I always found it interesting that lot of people our age don't care if one South-Asian person married another South-Asian person (regardless of caste/religion)...but are generally shocked (atleast surprised) to see a South-Asian going out or marrying another White/Black person.

 

[justAguy]

I am a human being and that's all

or as someone said it .... a spiritual being living a human experience.

I don't believe in holding on to the titles that our ancestors lived by ... but in terms of general social strata, the caste system is often something augmented by governments. There's a reason for class struggles and class systems in the first place, and that's why I'm such a strong believer in Socialism.
For example in modern societies, once you're in the labor class, you're pretty much stuck in that class, because through the labor class's exploitation, the capital of big businesses grow. The Horatio Alger myths don't really work that often where you rise up above from the very bottom. That's why I'm such a huge advocator of socialism (the way Engels meant it to be), everyone is equal, you put in what you can and take out what you want.

Spirituality teaches that we are all one and all the same, all living beings are manifests of God embodying the same everlasting power.
But all that means nothing once you go out in the real world and you’re struggling to pay your bills and there’s such a huge number of poor people and such a small number of really really rich, so the caste system in terms of modern societies is very relevant because social stratas (like in the US for example) are orchestrated from the very beginning to benefit a small number of people on top (for example African American slavery was created as a solution of dividing the masses after a series of revolts from white indentured servants who complained of wealth disparity, and it was a great solution n really worked, read Takaki for those who are interested, a chapter called the Giddy Multitude).

 

[justAguy]

Not trying to hog your topic....but, how many people think that its okay to marry someone out of your caste but would not entertain the thought of marrying someone from another skin color?

I think our generation growing up with diversity is a little bit more open minded. I think love is universal, beyond colors and nationalities n all that crap, I'd marry anybody I fell in love with. However, most of us get along better with people who come from the same culture as us, there's just more in common, so without the pressure from parents to stay within our own cultural boundaries when it's marriage time, I think most people do so anyway

 

[Tuckerrrr]

caste system is whack. if ur a sikh then u recognize the human race as one. if not, then whatever...u stupid

 

[sulmoney]

its not a problem confined to sikhism. there is almost always going to be a clash between ones religion and ones culture. being able to balance that dichotomy is what will define you as an individual in the world we live in. aand back to studying.

 

[sargam627]

I find it very aggrivating when people ask me what caste I am and I tell em I don't belong to one because I am a Sikh, and they STILL ask "So, what's your caste? You must have a caste". No-one should be superior/inferior to another person, regardless of color, race, CASTE, any disability, etc. We were all created equally and we are all unique in our own way, and the caste system judges you not by WHO you are, but why WHAT (caste) you are. The caste system is retarded. We are all equal, wether you like it or not.

I mean no offense to anyone with my post, It's just how I feel since we're on the subject.

 

[Sonuu]

I find it very aggrivating when people ask me what caste I am and I tell em I don't belong to one because I am a Sikh, and they STILL ask "So, what's your caste? You must have a caste". No-one should be superior/inferior to another person, regardless of color, race, CASTE, any disability, etc. We were all created equally and we are all unique in our own way, and the caste system judges you not by WHO you are, but why WHAT (caste) you are. The caste system is retarded. We are all equal, wether you like it or not.

I mean no offense to anyone with my post, It's just how I feel since we're on the subject.

i agree with you.

as i said before, as far as i know, sikhism dictates the abolishing of the caste system. man is simply man, there is no caste that labels a man. i understand that some people may believe that the caste system still exists in india, which it probably does, but i feel that sikhs that still claim themselves to be a certain caste is simply rediculous. one comment i did notice someone say (i dont remember who) was that people claim themselves to be sikh and jatt or someting of the sort, when in all reality they're actions and beliefs simply show that they are PUNJABI and Jatt, which makes it okay ( i guess ). No offense intended to anyone by my posts

 

[Varun]

Is not religion a proxy for caste? What were the Gurus aiming at by eliminating caste. In my opinion, they no longer wanted humanity to divide themselves through these superfluous categories and fight amongst each other, you know, by one group claiming to be better than another.

Sound familiar?

Its exactly what religions do today. So maybe we can eliminate caste system, segregation, apartheid, slavery etc, but people will still have the US vs. THEM mentality through religion. Sikh vs. Non Sikh, Hindu vs. Non-hindu, Shia vs Sunni, etc, etc. Religion is just another manifestation of this discriminating quality of humanity.

 

[Tuckerrrr]

Is not religion a proxy for caste? What were the Gurus aiming at by eliminating caste. In my opinion, they no longer wanted humanity to divide themselves through these superfluous categories and fight amongst each other, you know, by one group claiming to be better than another.

Sound familiar?

Its exactly what religions do today. So maybe we can eliminate caste system, segregation, apartheid, slavery etc, but people will still have the US vs. THEM mentality through religion. Sikh vs. Non Sikh, Hindu vs. Non-hindu, Shia vs Sunni, etc, etc. Religion is just another manifestation of this discriminating quality of humanity.

bro no matter what, people will always have an US vs. THEM mentality. if not based on religion then on plenty of other things. its human nature to want to belong to a group...and consequently, to not belong to another group.

although, i think one of the main points in sikhism (and many other religions) is that u can be sikh and still belong to the non-sikh 'group'. u can be part of a group but it doesnt necessarily have to be exclusive.

 

[Sonuu]

Is not religion a proxy for caste? What were the Gurus aiming at by eliminating caste. In my opinion, they no longer wanted humanity to divide themselves through these superfluous categories and fight amongst each other, you know, by one group claiming to be better than another.

Sound familiar?

Its exactly what religions do today. So maybe we can eliminate caste system, segregation, apartheid, slavery etc, but people will still have the US vs. THEM mentality through religion. Sikh vs. Non Sikh, Hindu vs. Non-hindu, Shia vs Sunni, etc, etc. Religion is just another manifestation of this discriminating quality of humanity.

That's definately an interesting way to think about it. However, i think that religion does differ from caste because for the most part (at least modern day), there is not much discrimination against religions. Day to day conversations that i have with random people that i meet sometimes end up conversing about my religion (because i wear a pagg), and whether the person is catholic, sikhi, muslim, hindu, etc.. i've never really had someone disciminate against me regarding it. On the other hand, walking around school campus ive had conversations with other sikhs who would, in an introduction conversation, ask me what caste i am. i always say that i dont have a caste, but then after asking for my last name its evident that at one point my ancestor's were Pappa. I've definately noticed some different feelings that people have towards me after having those kinds of conversations and i feel that it is definately unnecessary especially if i said i dont commit myself to a caste. just somethings ive noticed

 

[Varun]

bro no matter what, people will always have an US vs. THEM mentality. if not based on religion then on plenty of other things. its human nature to want to belong to a group...and consequently, to not belong to another group.

Aho, paaji but I would argue that religious groups create a graver form of discrimination than ethnic/racial groups. The stakes are higher. Religion promises heaven/nirvana/eternal peace to its believers, and narkh/hell/lower reincarnation/eternal misery to its non-believers. I would rather have mutural respect for the different cultural groups out there and understand that we are all different but equal, than have a bunch of different religions that separate between the righteous believers and the evil, unpure infidels (lol).

Also, while we are at it, why do people always say religion and culture are too different things. Religion is an aspect of culture. I think we punjabis think that only dance, music, and food are culture. Most anthropologists would argue that culture is much more, and religion (and i know this is going to hurt a lot of people) is a man-made, cultural/social construction. Yeah, sorry guys...no "sky god" came down and brought religion to Man. we created it ourselves.

i always say that i dont have a caste, but then after asking for my last name its evident that at one point my ancestor's were Pappa. I've definately noticed some different feelings that people have towards me after having those kinds of conversations and i feel that it is definately unnecessary especially if i said i dont commit myself to a caste. just somethings ive noticed

Lol, you should remind those so-called Sikhs that the Gurus of their religion all belonged to the Bedi clan (of Khatri descent), which would make them members of the Bhapa community as well.

 

[DjDhol-E]

honestly who cares whether your ancestors were farmers or were construction workers or were tailors and etc. if your SIKH your SIKH !

 

[Dippy]

honestly who cares whether your ancestors were farmers or were construction workers or were tailors and etc. if your SIKH your SIKH !

AGREED!!

Marry who you want, there are so many contridictions in our society that don't follow the guru granth sahib and its really confusing especially for our generation because I'll hear one theory that comes from our religion and you hear the complete opposite from society. Being from two different castes isn't going to necessarily affect how you raise your children or what reglion you decide to commit to, so do what you want, its your life and you only live once ;D

like John Lennon said....."Nothing to kill or die for, and no RELIGION too, imagine all the people living life in peace, aa woohoooooooo"

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

There will always be a difference in ideals and actual practices. It is human nature. In regards to the Sikh community there have always been divisions since the beginning and most of them were caste/community related. There has always been a Jatt hegemony in modern Punjabi culture since the bulk of Punjabis, especially Sikhs identify as a part of the community. It only got stronger after Maharajah Ranjit Singh's reign and following that when the British came and designated them as a martial class and split up the Jatt regiment from the Mazhabis and divided the Sikhs into two different caste designated regiments. Also the land ownership laws they passed in those times were specifically designed to give the Jatts ownership of the land while denying it to people of low caste and other communities such as Khatris. Landlords = Kings, everyone else = peasants. King>peasant, that is the logic working here that pervades till now when you go to Punjab and meet high class Jatt families who think they dropped from heaven itself.

Lower castes have been gravely mistreated and alienated, mostly by groups like the SPGC who for many years had directives to gurudwaras that they should keep low castes out at certain times. After partition Ambedkar, the architect of India's constitution, wanted to convert to Sikhism. This would have also caused many millions of low castes to do so as well. Eventually they say that he realized that the caste mentality that he hated so much in Hindu society was present in the society of the Sikhs as well.

http://apnaorg.com/research-papers/harish-puri/ Here is a long research paper that is interesting and brings up some good statistics and points, I have some disagreements with some things but it has some interesting takes. Stuff like this

A Parallel Caste Hierarchy



Sikhism did not lead to the creation of an egalitarian community or end of caste hierarchy and discrimination. But the caste pattern had undergone a change. Scholars have pointed to the construction of a Sikh caste hierarchy, parallel to that of the Hindu caste hierarchy. Prominent among these are W.H. McLeod (The Evolution of Sikh Community 1976), Ethne K. Marenco (The Transformation of Sikhism 1976), and Indera Paul Singh (“Caste in a Sikh Village” 1977). The emergent comparative picture may be described as under:

1. In the Hindu caste system, the hierarchy of the actually functioning jatis is ordered with reference to the varnashram – the traditional four varnas order – attributable to scriptural sanction. As Ambedkar underlined in one of his exchanges with Gandhi, in Hinduism it was not the practice you disapproved of, but the ideals. In Sikhism, there is no scriptural sanction for caste distinctions. The emphasis has been on the brotherhood of all under one God – equality among all human beings. The problem is with the practice, not the ideals.

2. Brahmins are at the top in Hindu Caste hierarchy. Among the Sikhs, on the other hand, Jats who had graduated to the position of a ruling class under Maharaja Ranjit Singh, came on the top of the hierarchy. Generally speaking, Khatris, Aroras and Labanas came after them, followed by the artisan castes among whom Ramgarhias (Sikh Carpenter caste) enjoy higher status than Ahluwalias (kalals). The menial or untouchable castes are at the bottom, just as among the Hindus. However, the perceptions regarding which caste is placed second, third and fourth varied both by the village and the caste one belonged to.

3. The structure of caste discrimination in the Sikh community was considerably liberated from the purity-pollution frame of relations, as against the Hindu community in which that consideration is relatively more prominent.

4. Sikhism altered the principle that knowledge is acquired and produced only by priestly class (such as Brahmins). There is no permanent class of priests or producers of religious knowledge in Sikhism. Even the initial advantage enjoyed by the Bedis and Sodhis on that score was obliterated after the Gurdwara Reform Movement. Priests and ragis and sewadars (as employees) now largely come from the lower castes, including a noticeable number from the Scheduled Castes; and, it may be surprising, fewer from the Jat caste. Jat Sikhs would rather control the SGPC.

5. Castes are endogamous both in the Hindu and Sikh caste systems. But going by the field studies, (mentioned below) the endogamy was a little weaker, and hypergamy a little stronger among the Sikhs than the Hindus.

 

[AnkurK]

i am hindu

 

[terabaap]

There will always be a difference in ideals and actual practices. It is human nature. In regards to the Sikh community there have always been divisions since the beginning and most of them were caste/community related. There has always been a Jatt hegemony in modern Punjabi culture since the bulk of Punjabis, especially Sikhs identify as a part of the community. It only got stronger after Maharajah Ranjit Singh's reign and following that when the British came and designated them as a martial class and split up the Jatt regiment from the Mazhabis and divided the Sikhs into two different caste designated regiments. Also the land ownership laws they passed in those times were specifically designed to give the Jatts ownership of the land while denying it to people of low caste and other communities such as Khatris. Landlords = Kings, everyone else = peasants. King>peasant, that is the logic working here that pervades till now when you go to Punjab and meet high class Jatt families who think they dropped from heaven itself.

Lower castes have been gravely mistreated and alienated, mostly by groups like the SPGC who for many years had directives to gurudwaras that they should keep low castes out at certain times. After partition Ambedkar, the architect of India's constitution, wanted to convert to Sikhism. This would have also caused many millions of low castes to do so as well. Eventually they say that he realized that the caste mentality that he hated so much in Hindu society was present in the society of the Sikhs as well.

http://apnaorg.com/research-papers/harish-puri/ Here is a long research paper that is interesting and brings up some good statistics and points, I have some disagreements with some things but it has some interesting takes. Stuff like this

A Parallel Caste Hierarchy



Sikhism did not lead to the creation of an egalitarian community or end of caste hierarchy and discrimination. But the caste pattern had undergone a change. Scholars have pointed to the construction of a Sikh caste hierarchy, parallel to that of the Hindu caste hierarchy. Prominent among these are W.H. McLeod (The Evolution of Sikh Community 1976), Ethne K. Marenco (The Transformation of Sikhism 1976), and Indera Paul Singh (“Caste in a Sikh Village” 1977). The emergent comparative picture may be described as under:

1. In the Hindu caste system, the hierarchy of the actually functioning jatis is ordered with reference to the varnashram – the traditional four varnas order – attributable to scriptural sanction. As Ambedkar underlined in one of his exchanges with Gandhi, in Hinduism it was not the practice you disapproved of, but the ideals. In Sikhism, there is no scriptural sanction for caste distinctions. The emphasis has been on the brotherhood of all under one God – equality among all human beings. The problem is with the practice, not the ideals.

2. Brahmins are at the top in Hindu Caste hierarchy. Among the Sikhs, on the other hand, Jats who had graduated to the position of a ruling class under Maharaja Ranjit Singh, came on the top of the hierarchy. Generally speaking, Khatris, Aroras and Labanas came after them, followed by the artisan castes among whom Ramgarhias (Sikh Carpenter caste) enjoy higher status than Ahluwalias (kalals). The menial or untouchable castes are at the bottom, just as among the Hindus. However, the perceptions regarding which caste is placed second, third and fourth varied both by the village and the caste one belonged to.

3. The structure of caste discrimination in the Sikh community was considerably liberated from the purity-pollution frame of relations, as against the Hindu community in which that consideration is relatively more prominent.

4. Sikhism altered the principle that knowledge is acquired and produced only by priestly class (such as Brahmins). There is no permanent class of priests or producers of religious knowledge in Sikhism. Even the initial advantage enjoyed by the Bedis and Sodhis on that score was obliterated after the Gurdwara Reform Movement. Priests and ragis and sewadars (as employees) now largely come from the lower castes, including a noticeable number from the Scheduled Castes; and, it may be surprising, fewer from the Jat caste. Jat Sikhs would rather control the SGPC.

5. Castes are endogamous both in the Hindu and Sikh caste systems. But going by the field studies, (mentioned below) the endogamy was a little weaker, and hypergamy a little stronger among the Sikhs than the Hindus.

Well said comtomdaJATT

 

[singh5327]

I've never been one to care much about castes and all that stuff nor do I now. However, people do come up to me have a convo with me and then ask me this stuff, I think its good to know about your ancestory and know what your family history is in that sense. But it should be left at that, you shouldn't parade around thinking your better than someone else just because of their caste because that in no way defines who a person is.


P.s. Sonu I think I know who you're talking about around campus