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Teams using cones to frame the stage

Saleem

Administrator
Staff member
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1,928
I've noticed in the past few years more teams are setting cones up at mid-stage, quarters, eigths, and ends of the stage -- basically all over. I understand the use of these cones during practice to help a team nail its formations, but are they appropriate during a stage performance?


Here's an example I just saw (not trying to call out this team, it's just the most recent video I've watched)



In my opinion, the cones take away from the overall presentation and technical excellence that's required to really hit your formations well. It makes it seem like a practice. During run-throughs, you put sneakers/cones down and you also yell to one another to get into place or to do a move a certain way -- but you don't do that during the performance, why? Because it takes away from the performance as an effortless presentation of the team's skills.


My recommendation is to have the organizer put white tape down at mid-stage, quarters, and end of the stage (and center depth). A team should be able to execute their formations given those guides.


PS - Some teams have used props to demarcate the stage -- that's an interesting compromise which isn't as noticeably out of place as traffic cones.
 

hsdeol

Active Member
Messages
485
I agree with you. I think that stage markers are extremely important when practicing and learning formations, but ultimately when you move on stage you have to move in relation to dancers around you and your formation. Looking around for markers all performance long can really take away from the performance. Teams have been using stage markers for a while now in some form or another, but bright unattractive makers are definitely starting to have a distracting presence to the stage.

Not going to start a new thread for this, but what do people think about how teams pick up and drop off props. Not in terms of dropping them or placing them down but how some teams take a 5 second (sometimes longer) break inbetween segements to pick up and drop off props. I give credit to teams that find more interesting ways to get props off stage (AEG khunde pass off) or do it in the motion of the routine (1 beat drop 1 beat pick up)
 

Ajay.H

New Member
Messages
142
Right now, it seems that so many teams use them and don't get docked for them (or only a little) that you're at somewhat of a disadvantage if you don't use them. I've heard judges say that they appreciate a performance more without stage markers, but I don't know how much that ends up affecting decisions and/or points.

My main reservation is teams that don't get to practice together very often, with video choreo and maybe one or two formations practices before a comp. I guess that is their own problem and we should be willing to award the other teams who put in that much more effort, but without markers, those teams will have probably have no chance of placing.

What you're saying could work - basically five markers across the front of the stage and have the competitions publicize that and not allow anything else. It might get harder to enforce that with teams setting up props in certain place or gimmick devices - deciding what they are using as a marker and what they aren't.

*Just read your PS at the bottom. Is your main point that the cones look out of place or that teams are basically making a grid out of the stage and they should be working harder to not rely on markers?
 

Saleem

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Staff member
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@Ajay My point is mainly that the cones look very out of place. There is a certain element of too much babying when you have 7 markers across the stage, too, which I find to be even more distracting. Props are less noticeable than cones (unless you think back at the end-- "hey they never used those katos"), but are still more than tape.
 

siddyp

Tough times never last, but tough people do.
Messages
1,270
Saleem said:
My recommendation is to have the organizer put white tape down at mid-stage, quarters, and end of the stage (and center depth). A team should be able to execute their formations given those guides.
the one thing i think is different about teams is that they use their own dimensions on every stage. So if the competition were to give you exact dimensions of what they were going to mark then sure. but an all guys team of 12 may want to spread their markers a bit wider than a co-ed team, if the stage has space.

so requiring a team to use a certain part of the stage or the whole stage could dis advantage/give an advantage to certain teams.

What would be interesting is if a rubric said " if you're going to use stage markers, formation mishaps will be looked upon even worse in deliberation" so 2 teams who score an 8 in formations, one used cones one didn't, the team without cones gets the plus in that category.
 

amancheema

Active Member
Messages
240
If you ban or discourage "markers", teams will just place extra kenchis or katos in the front to indicate whatever markings they need.

Markers may seem like a cheat code but they actually are just an alternate way of doing formations. Some teams practice formations in relation to each other, others practice in relation to set markers - I don't know if one denotes a greater sense of "excellence" but to use markers at practice and then to dance in relation to each other on stage doesn't make any sense.

Teams should just be aware that obnoxious markers will detract from their performance - use them at your own risk.
 

dheerja

Member
Messages
607
It's impossible to regulate what is being used for formations and what isn't. If a rule is made to judge harsher or to not use formation markers, teams will just come up with more clandestine ways to do it, like using bhangra props instead of cones.

I think markers should be treated as part of the aesthetic presentation of your routine. So if a cone is not aesthetically pleasing to a judge and doesn't contribute to the visual effect of your routine, then they can dock points. But if you're creative about it and use something bhangra-related or something that sets the scene (Ex: flower vases, matkis, etc.) then that's part of your presentation and shouldn't be penalized.
 

Sue Sylvester

kinnell
Messages
467
Judges don't write rubrics and shouldn't be able to penalize for using markers if the competition hasn't explicitly stated it since markers have become somewhat of an accepted norm in the circuit. That being said, it's up to competitions to decide whether teams can use markers or not. I believe Bhangra Idols is the only competition right now that restricts the use of stage markers in whatever form and even extends that limitation to forbidding teams from having extra props on stage. (ie: If there are 12 kaatos placed on stage, all 12 have to be used in the performance).

Since it should be the competition's decision, the final question for the competition organization is whether they want a better "competitive experience" for the teams (no markers means the more capable, more experienced teams will perform much better than novice teams) or a better "show" for the audience (markers means more teams will hit their formations and thus more entertainment value for the audience).
 

Saleem

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@Sue what about tape? Tape is not visible to audience members so it doesn't take away from the show, and it's still visible to dancers. Even seated in the balcony, you don't really notice tape X's anywhere as much as you'd notice cones.
 

Sue Sylvester

kinnell
Messages
467
Saleem said:
@Sue what about tape? Tape is not visible to audience members so it doesn't take away from the show, and it's still visible to dancers. Even seated in the balcony, you don't really notice tape X's anywhere as much as you'd notice cones.

I honestly don't feel like markers detract from the entertainment value of a performance from the point of view of an audience member. Both tape and markers give teams an advantage in executing formations which increase entertainment value.


The other side of the argument, in my opinion, is that tape and markers are handicaps to real "competitive" dancing, as oppose to seeing them as detraction to entertainment value. When you take the handicap out of the equation, the teams with better and more experienced dancers will come out more on top more easily which is more rewarding to better dancers. I believe Bhangra Idols restricts markers for the reason of promoting a competition where teams with better dancers come out more on top more easily. All your teams may not be as clean as they could have been, but the winners become more apparent and obvious.
 

Saab

Today is a gift
Messages
991
If you see stage markers and they are a problem, chances are you are looking at a video (which almost is always from the balcony and therefore highlights the cones) and usually see them at the start of a performance and go "wtf". I personally don't have a problem with cones - once the dance starts I usually am so into the dance I ignore they exist. Typically speaking, I think someone who is sitting on the bottom floor staring directly at the stage normally does not see markers.


The reason I think cones are now being used is because stage markers (such as saaps/khunda/katos in the front) have become so widespread it is now the norm. The flip side of the cones argument is that when you see saaps at the front, do you guy "why did they never use them, what is their purpose?". I understand more blatant attempts at organizing the stage are somewhat off-putting, but it makes the overall end product better. Also, if you use cones and don't hit formations --> easy indicator to a judge for taking off points(they can use them too).
 

Ajay.H

New Member
Messages
142
siddyp said:
What would be interesting is if a rubric said " if you're going to use stage markers, formation mishaps will be looked upon even worse in deliberation" so 2 teams who score an 8 in formations, one used cones one didn't, the team without cones gets the plus in that category.
+1. This is basically what we were told at Bayside this past year.

dheerja said:
I think markers should be treated as part of the aesthetic presentation of your routine. So if a cone is not aesthetically pleasing to a judge and doesn't contribute to the visual effect of your routine, then they can dock points. But if you're creative about it and use something bhangra-related or something that sets the scene (Ex: flower vases, matkis, etc.) then that's part of your presentation and shouldn't be penalized.
This is only okay if the competition makes this very clear beforehand because of what Sue said - They've been too accepted so far for a judge to decide on comp day that they don't like the way cones look.

Combining those two ideas can go a long way.

There is also a risk involved with using markers in that if a marker gets moved/knocked by something (curtain, prop) or a dancer, the team is in a pretty shitty spot.
 

Kaur

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,294
It's a greater challenge to not use markers. We have never used them, at most we have marked center when the competition has not.
-We always use the speakers to set how wide we are going to dance
- use chairs in the audience to mark our inbetween lines.
- use the curtains or other markings the venue may have to mark how deep we are going to dance and to set center on the sides.

90% of the time our formations have been on point. I guess if the rubric doesn't say anything then markers are fine to use. Its like having an open book test lol where you get to take your notes with you.I think if anything it's about getting respect from fellow dancers and teams when you can hit formations without markers.
 

MPElive

Ehhh Folllkkkkkk Ahhh !!
Messages
323
Not a big fan when teams use cones to make sure they formations are nearly perfect. I have seen dancers looking at them rather than interacting with the audience while on stage.

Rule of thumb for me: If you use the PROP in your routine somwhere and have placed as a marker as well, I wouldn't deduct points. If the PROP is sitting there without being touched, that would be a no no in my books.
 

amancheema

Active Member
Messages
240
Hkiran said:
It's a greater challenge to not use markers. We have never used them, at most we have marked center when the competition has not.
-We always use the speakers to set how wide we are going to dance
- use chairs in the audience to mark our inbetween lines.
- use the curtains or other markings the venue may have to mark how deep we are going to dance and to set center on the sides.

If you are utilizing speakers, chairs in the audience, and curtains to position your formations, those are your markers and therefore you are also using markers to dance.

Yes, its a greater challenge but only because it is inefficient compared to a team bringing its own cones/phummans/ladoos/whatever it decides to use.
 

mafzal

Judge / Dancer
Messages
2,098
In my personal opionion not team related necessarily: Haha I agree the traffic cones aren't the nicest looking things on stage. We wanted to decorate them or make them more discreet but we didn't have time and it wasn't a priority, especially since we knew other teams would do the same and we have always done it before.

In my personal opinion markers are cool but at least be smart about it, be discreet, make them look pretty. Your entire performance is about being aesthetically pleasing - you make your props look and vardiyan look pretty so you should make your markers either blend in somehow or be something that adds to the stage (not detract)
 

mafzal

Judge / Dancer
Messages
2,098
Good Question:

Ajay.H said:
*Just read your PS at the bottom. Is your main point that the cones look out of place or that teams are basically making a grid out of the stage and they should be working harder to not rely on markers?
My opinion is that making an entire X,Y coordinate grid is more power to you lol, if it helps you hit formations, do whatever you gotta do... But it should still be aesthetically pleasing and it should not detract from your dancing
 

Dj ASG

Member
Messages
408
tag has used the same orange cones from day one. its become a part of our team and the reason why i use it is to take the set we practice so hard with to any stage with the same deminsions. i could have easily taken the markers out and the girls will still pull the same performance but we always had and will never stop using it unless we loose points for it.
 

jasraj93

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,122
Somehow use the items and incorporate them into the set. Set instruments at the front and have a mela at the end using them?
 
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