What is sheesham wood!?!?

[DholiKhan]

I've been looking at dhols on the intetnet cause i got bored, and i came across something called, shesham wood dhol, like basically, what is
It? And is it a really good wood? I heard some people say that its the best wood for a dhol.

 

[Basim]

Hi DholiKhan,

Here is a topic that answers your exact question: http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/main-bhangra-discussion/dhol-wood-question/

Please try to use the SEARCH function on BTF before creating a topic and your life's questions will be resolved a lot quicker (promise!)

Here's another general guideline: http://thedholcompany.com/customize-your-dhol/buying-guide/

Hope this helps,

~ Basim

 

[Dholi harsh]

Wait hold up. Till this date i did not know that Sheesham was the same as Tali dhols. Or did i read wrong? this has literally just mind fucked me entirely.

 

[DholiKhan]

I know right

 

[Gabbah Shareef Bhalwan]

Sheesham and taahli are the same wood. Taahli is the more standard Punjabi language word, whereas sheesham is what you'd say in Hindi, for example.


The Punjabis in Delhi, i.e. music store owners and exporters of dhols, would be constantly speaking a mix of Hindi and Punjabi...resulting in a sort of "watered down Punjabi"— which is my guess why "we" come across "sheesham" so much. For what it's worth, I really don't remember, during my interviews with dholis across Punjab, hearing dholis talk about "sheesham"; they would say "taahli." That being said, I wouldn't be very surprised if someone said that they'd heard Punjabi dholis saying sheesham; I'm just offering my experience. And, consider that if *you* (assuming you're a non-local) introduce "sheesham" to the convo, then you've sort of polluted the conversation and the other person will say it, too! Anyways, none of this is any big deal, just a geeky matter of interest.


I'll add my two cents here again and just give my OPINION that any taahli is a good dhol. The vast majority of people who are not professional dhol players ( = you play dhol for a living) have no need for the more rare and expensive "kaali" (dark) taahli wood. Dhol players in America, UK, etc seem to be obsessed with getting it because they have heard it is the best and because they are rich enough to pay the premium to buy it *kind of like buying a Lexus as your first car!). But going to India and insisting on getting the best dhol when you're not a serious professional and then just whipping out the money and buying it kind of makes you look like a douche in the eyes of the local dholis, who probably had to "pay their dues" on other instruments and work up to and save for the better instrument...and who then keep that instrument as the most cherished part of their occupation. The kaali taahli is not a very plentiful natural resource; people who have these dhols hold onto them because you can't just walk into a store and buy one. I'm not saying don't get a kaali taahli dhol if it is readily available, but don't obsess about it, be happy if you have any good dhol, and try to be humble if the opportunity comes up to get one. Again, my opinion and I hope not to rain on too many people's parades...

 

[Gabbah Shareef Bhalwan]

For more info on dhol construction, including photos, see this publication.


http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/main-bhangra-discussion/major-publication-on-dhol-punjabi-dances-musicians-culture/


You can buy a PDF copy for US$37.


There are hundreds of photos and dhol rhythms in it, too.

 

[Basim]

Thank you Gibb for chiming in!

That's what I was going to guess as well.

I think the main difference the two types of wood is whether the tree was "ripe" or "fully grown" when cut down - kacchi (literally translates to unripe) pakki (literally translates to grown).

Below is a picture of the actual tree your dhol could have been made from!!

Source and more information on the tree: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalbergia_sissoo

The tahli/seesham wood is more commonly referred to as "Indian rosewood" here in North America (at least by non-Desi's). In fact, before I ever got into the bhangra world, I mostly knew of Indian rosewood to be used in durable furniture (i.e. coffee tables, chests, etc) and acoustic instruments.

~ Basim

 

[monisingh]

Sheesham and taahli are the same wood. Taahli is the more standard Punjabi language word, whereas sheesham is what you'd say in Hindi, for example.


The Punjabis in Delhi, i.e. music store owners and exporters of dhols, would be constantly speaking a mix of Hindi and Punjabi...resulting in a sort of "watered down Punjabi"— which is my guess why "we" come across "sheesham" so much. For what it's worth, I really don't remember, during my interviews with dholis across Punjab, hearing dholis talk about "sheesham"; they would say "taahli." That being said, I wouldn't be very surprised if someone said that they'd heard Punjabi dholis saying sheesham; I'm just offering my experience. And, consider that if *you* (assuming you're a non-local) introduce "sheesham" to the convo, then you've sort of polluted the conversation and the other person will say it, too! Anyways, none of this is any big deal, just a geeky matter of interest.


I'll add my two cents here again and just give my OPINION that any taahli is a good dhol. The vast majority of people who are not professional dhol players ( = you play dhol for a living) have no need for the more rare and expensive "kaali" (dark) taahli wood. Dhol players in America, UK, etc seem to be obsessed with getting it because they have heard it is the best and because they are rich enough to pay the premium to buy it *kind of like buying a Lexus as your first car!). But going to India and insisting on getting the best dhol when you're not a serious professional and then just whipping out the money and buying it kind of makes you look like a douche in the eyes of the local dholis, who probably had to "pay their dues" on other instruments and work up to and save for the better instrument...and who then keep that instrument as the most cherished part of their occupation. The kaali taahli is not a very plentiful natural resource; people who have these dhols hold onto them because you can't just walk into a store and buy one. I'm not saying don't get a kaali taahli dhol if it is readily available, but don't obsess about it, be happy if you have any good dhol, and try to be humble if the opportunity comes up to get one. Again, my opinion and I hope not to rain on too many people's parades...

I got a kali taali I know it depends on the tuning but my chitti taali dhol which is actually a little smaller is much more louder, open sounding and just overall better than the kali taali in terms of sound...kind of wish i never got it to be honest. currently replacing skins and rope and gonna sell it off to someone who can appreciate it more

 

[Dholi harsh]

God damn, i never knew that. Thanks alot for clearing that up for me. it all makes alot of sense now.

 

[Gabbah Shareef Bhalwan]

I think the main difference the two types of wood is whether the tree was "ripe" or "fully grown" when cut down - kacchi (literally translates to ripe) pakki (literally translates to grown).

Hi,
I was addressing the difference (or rather, non-difference) between "sheesham" and "taahli". I think you're talking about diff. between the light and dark (kaali) versions of taahli, right?


You've essentially got it right. But the simpler way to say it is that the taahli tree has both wood. The inner core or "heartwood" is dark, while the outer is light. The heartwood is more dried out and harder = the better wood.


Age comes into play because the older the tree is, the wider its circumference, then the wider the proportion of heartwood. (As the tree grows and gets wider, forming more rings, the center gradually turns to heartwood in greater and greater amount.)


If the tree isn't big enough (= old enough), or for some other reason (the heartwood just isn't forming well), then you won't have a wide enough section to make a dhol from. What little heartwood there is will end up being the bit that you cut out of the center of the dhol! - from which you can then make a tabla or something else.


So you can see that you need old (big) trees that have developed well to be able to make a dhol of "kaali taahli". This is why it is not a simple reproducible commodity. If you grow trees for the lumber industry, image how long you might have to wait. Too long. So, the more likely thing is old trees growing up in the mountains, which are obviously limited.


Now you guys see why I say that the kaali taahli is something somewhat precious, in short supply, and why my stodgy old man opinion is that it would be nice to let the pro dholis in Punjab have access to those dhols when possible, rather than us amateurs in America with big dollars going to snatch them all. Even if it doesnt mean taking dhols out of the hands of professionals, minimally they see it as a bit like being invited to dinner and not finishing all the food on your plate.


I'm not sure who all uses these phrases "kachi pakki" and "pakki". Kachi is UNripe/unfinished, pakki is finished/solid. The heartwood, which has aged and dried out..the kaali part...is pakki! The outer wood (white / chiti) would seem to be 'kachi'. I can only guess that by 'kachi pakki' they mean like 50/50 or a mixture - light with patches of dark, or slightly dark (getting close to the heart) but not really there.

 

[Dholi harsh]

im buying this book. If you're able to give so much information on just these btf posts. Imagine 100 some pages of it. I Want. I Need.

 

[voxanimus]

gibb is BTF's informational MVP. hands down.

 

[JupMasterG]

Gabbah Shareef Bhalwan I remember when you posted your publication link on BTF a couple years back. I read upon the detailed description and told myself I was going to get it and never got back to it! I definitely plan on getting it very soon now that I've came upon it again!

Great info.

 

[Dholi harsh]

Thats what im saying. Everytime i say im going to buy it, i keep getting busy and forget about it but i want it so bad haha

 

[DholiKhan]

So whats better? Kaali tahli or sheesham?

 

[Basim]

So whats better? Kaali tahli or sheesham?

I thought you were following along with the thread.

To summarize, tahli = sheesham (it's the same wood), so your question doesn't really make sense.

The only two differences are what I was trying to mention in my post above:

1) The light (kaachi, chitti, or whatever word you want to use to describe "light"/ "raw"/ "unripe") comes from the "sapwood" section of the tahli/sheesham tree.

2) The dark (kaali) comes directly "heartwood" section of a tahli/sheesham tree.

As Gibb mentioned, when people describe a dhol as "kaachi pakki," it's a mix of the light & dark regions (it doesn't come directly from the heartwood section of a tree, but most likely comes from the area in between the heartwood & sapwood sections). This might help you visualize it better:

The wikipedia link that I referenced, also mentioned this:
"The heartwood is golden to dark brown; the sapwood, white to pale brownish white. The heartwood is extremely durable (the specific gravity is 0.7 – 0. 8 and is very resistant to dry-wood termites; but the sapwood is readily attacked by fungi and borers."

As far as which one is "better" - it varies amongst people. It's highly subjective and you should take into account various factors when judging sound from a dhol. I've heard & read about people saying they prefer one over the other, but read Gibb's 3rd paragraph in this post: http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/help-and-how-to/what-is-sheesham-wood!!/msg221615/#msg221615

Hope this helps,

~ Basim

 

[superdholi1994]

this is a 'must read this topic' because it is very interesting about sheesham/tahli dhols to be honest thumps up!!

 

[Dholi Arjun B]

Yeah I totally agree with Superdholi1994.
This is a must read post!


This cleared alot of stuff up (for me atleast)

 

[Gabbah Shareef Bhalwan]

Here's a photo I took of a dhol-maker. He is releasing the shell of the dhol from the center bit that has been carved out.

The center part is darker. The shell is a mixture of light and dark. The center is not large enough for a dhol, so it will be used to make a dholki, probably.

IIRC, the actual dhol here was the 'center' piece from an even larger dhol that was make. That dhol shell would have been of even lighter color wood and not as good (also because it had knots in it). That larger dhol would have been marketed to musicians in Rajasthan, where the dhols are larger and, according to stereotype, the players may not care as much about the quality (or, they may care, but they are too poor to have much say!).

 

[Gabbah Shareef Bhalwan]

gibb is BTF's informational MVP. hands down.

Thanks, man.