Re: Modern vs Traditional Bhangra Round # 547

[Chidiya]

Art should not have rules. If it does..then it should not be art. Art is suppose to be about freedom and expression.

 

[Temurzai]

All judges should be appointed by senior BTF members... Problem solved...

umm...hell no

I quite honestly think that if qualified BTF members were judges, we could get some legit, unbiased results. Im not even shitting you. If not, we would at least get much more favorable and justified results at competitions. i would really like to see this.

HA! no......everyone and their mom is biased as a mofo on here, some just cover it up better then others

btf members have been and continue to be judges at some of the smaller comps around the nation...but i know why this is being brought up again, (because it already has in the past), and quite frankly, that would be the end of the circuit if some people on here had their way. everyone is biased, and everyone on here that i know, i know if they are or are not, and if they are, i know in exactly wat way. danny is right.

wheres the fun in all this gone for those of you who cry at night cuz your fav team or maybe even your own team lost? why care that much bout winning? nobodys gettin broadway contracts cuz their jugni or sialkoti or watever is more folk than someone elses. this is SAD that placing is THIS SERIOUS to some. i swear, its like an insecurity from all that i hear around the circuit.

 

[LaLi]

sher foundation and rules? Damn i guess we didnt get the memo for the past 4 yrs..naughty us!

 

[Varun]

lolll i'd rather have "biased" results from people who actually know about bhangra rather than results based on "ooohhhs" and "ahhhhhs" from uncles and aunties who know nothing about bhangra

FOLK BHANGRA ZINDABAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Meistro and Charanjit stated the only two things people should take from this thread.

 

[Saab]

Go sher foundation.

Pick knowledgable judges....BRILLIANT

also, this thread is just beating around the same bush. If the placings arent to your liking, thats fine, just understand VIBC caters to more "entertaining" variations of bhangra. The only thing Ive gotten from this thread is that we just keep repeating the same argument over and over.

And that they should be compiled into a video such as...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DPKf7y1F-Q&feature=related

 

[Dhesi]

This thread is getting ridiculous. Biased results are better from someone who "knows about bhangra" rather than aunties and uncles that know nothing about bhangra". That's what I read, and pending I'm understanding this right, certain BTF members will only be happy if the placings go their way. Their opinion, and that is all it is, an opinion, is rule, and if a judge places a team different than said BTF member would have, said judge knows nothing about bhangra.

Forget having a forum, we should just have a constitution written by those "elite few BTF members" who know everything about bhangra and all will be well.

Ego much? What makes you better than any of the judges selected. As a 20-something year old person born in NA, how are you so educated? (not referring to anyone in particular of course, but I'm assuming that most ppl on here are 20-something year old persons born in NA).

 

[Opinder]

FOLK BHANGRA ZINDABAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EH FOLK AH

 

[Temurzai]

This thread is getting ridiculous. Biased results are better from someone who "knows about bhangra" rather than aunties and uncles that know nothing about bhangra". That's what I read, and pending I'm understanding this right, certain BTF members will only be happy if the placings go their way. Their opinion, and that is all it is, an opinion, is rule, and if a judge places a team different than said BTF member would have, said judge knows nothing about bhangra.

Forget having a forum, we should just have a constitution written by those "elite few BTF members" who know everything about bhangra and all will be well.

Ego much? What makes you better than any of the judges selected. As a 20-something year old person born in NA, how are you so educated? (not referring to anyone in particular of course, but I'm assuming that most ppl on here are 20-something year old persons born in NA).

no one is going to reply to us, wat i said and u said is too correct

 

[rajkaran]

take home messages are thse:

teams - apply to competitions where you feel that not only can you make the lineup, but you have a legit chance of placing based on judging criteria given to you before you apply.

competition organizers - select a lineup where everyone has a chance of placing based on those previously agreed upon judging criteria, and make sure to stick by them. select judges that will stick to that criteria, and are knowledgeable about every single item on there.

judges - stick to the criteria that's on your sheets. know it in and out. be able to explain your decisions and justify every number or remark on your judging sheet to the teams.

audience members - enjoy the performances that are on the stage.

btf members - enjoy the performances. offer feedback to the teams if they request it about what you think they can improve on, or what you did not like. if the team decides to implement any of your suggestions, high five. if not, well, deal with it. come on here and bitch and complain about everything as much as you want because that is what the function of these forums are for, to foster healthy discussion and pass along knowledge. we will never come to any sort of consensus in this debate of modern vs traditional, and we have to accept it.

my two cents

well said! esp the last part...

 

[HarmanSingh]

lol, the majority of senior members on BTF don't even know Punjabi, yet they are qualified to be judges? Yeah, right. And to top it off most people on this forum are unbelievably biased towards there former teams/friends' teams. No thanks. I would rather have Uncles who know a thing or 2 about the culture and have no connections to the people competing.

 

[faizan]

HarmanSingh, what does knowing Punjabi have to do with judging?  That is the stupid Punjabi-centric bullshit that pisses me off about the bhangra circuit.  I know Guju kids, white kids, Bengali kids who can tell me what every move is, and know how it is supposed to be performed.  That is just ignorant.

The majority of the senior members of BTF are well qualified to be judges, period. 

 

[Ramani]

The majority of the senior member of BTF are well qualified to be judges, period.

totally agreee with that one..

 

[Pooja]

My personal opinion is that active BTF members should not be judging competitions...in an ideal world, people from the forum would be very knowledgeable and hopefully not biased...but that really will never happen. People are too aware of misnomered reputations and to an extent too involved in the scene.

As far as the most active members knowing Punjabi....I'm almost positive that most of them actually do...

Some are definitely 'qualified' but I still would never pick anyone active here as a judge, unless they became inactive for a long period of time.

 

[Basim]

HarmanSingh, what does knowing Punjabi have to do with judging? That is the stupid Punjabi-centric bullshit that pisses me off about the bhangra circuit. I know Guju kids, white kids, Bengali kids who can tell me what every move is, and know how it is supposed to be performed. That is just ignorant.

The majority of the senior members of BTF are well qualified to be judges, period.

+1

Besides understanding the lyrics (where you can have just about anyone translate a song for you to get the basic meaning), what does being able to know/speak Punjabi have to do with bhangra? As faizan stated, I know plenty of non-punjabis who know more about bhangra (and performing bhangra) than most Punjabi-speakers.

Not sure where you are going with this one Harman. By the way, do you know Summy? I believe you and him would be great friends based on the notions you present (not just in this topic, but your overall thoughts are quite similar).

~ Basim

P.S. - I also agree with Pooja that if you are currently active in the bhangra scene or associated with a current team, you should not be judging due to an obvious bias.

 

[HarmanSingh]

What does speaking Punjabi have to do with a dance from Punjab? Hmmm..lets think about this.

Maybe if we had people who knew Punjabi judging we wouldn't have teams dancing to songs about the genocide of Sikhs in Punjab (from the Tigerstyle Shaheedi Immortality CD). A non-Punjabi judge would not mark them down for that and would not realize the stupidity of dancing to a song like that. It takes away from the dance when you have people who have no knowledge of the language judging competitions. Another example- teams dancing to sad songs b/c they think the beat is sick. It happens all the time, yet a non-Punjabi speaking judge would not know the difference. Or how about teams who dance to inappropriate songs on stage degrading women and whatnot? Happens all the time.

You guys have this mindset that anyone who watches a routine can become a judge. It is absurd and ridiculous. Live teams and other teams focused on the folk aspect pay attention to lyrics and bolis when choreographing. This aspect is completely lost on a non-Punjabi judge. Otherwise you will have teams dancing to Master Saleem remixed thinking its sick, while he is singing about the death of his mother. I can't even believe this is even an argument. It makes no sense to have me judging a Garba competition because I have no idea what is being danced to, regardless of how much I may watch it. You have "qualified team captains" like Kinell saying the word "masti" is violent and other "full members" wanting people to translate stuff like " boli pani" thinking it means "water speaking". If you can't understand Punjabi you cannot fully understand bhangra. Period. This type of stuff is messing up the bhangra community bad, and I don't give a damn if I am Punjabi centric because bhangra SHOULD be Punjabi centric. I mean shit, it is a part of PUNJABI culture...not Gujurati culture and I will be damned if I let non Punjabis act like they know our culture better than us because they watch videos of performances yet have never been to Punjab, never spoke Punjabi or know anythign about the culture beyond this forum and youtube. Look at qualified judges picked by comps like Bhangra Masti and AVAP. They are all former captains of Punjab University teams and know the culture inside and out. When you have that, teams who go on stage with girls jumping on guys shoulders and guys throwing pughs off stage is not tolerated because they understand ALL of the culture, not just bhangra.

Basim, I don't know Summy personally but have had numerous discussions with him on this forum. I guess because I expect better from the bhangra community I am just like him. That is your decision to make. However, our thoughts are quite different and you can look at previous threads to see that.

 

[faizan]

Lyrics and choreo to them, are mostly relevant for modern teams, Look at mirza, it is a sad song, about a guy dying at the hands of his lover's brothers. Do people act out Mirza? Look at any props song, does any one act our putt jattan de? Look at sammi, a song about women mourning for their dead lovers at war, A. it's sad, and B. no one acts it out. Your argument holds barely any weight man.

I know where you are coming from in terms of understanding lyrics, but song selection is a small percentage of points on any judging rubric.

 

[Harman]

yo you guys are hilarious..........no ones personal opinions are ever gonna change on this matter.....so whats the point in arguing over it....why cant u guys jus agree to disagree......

 

[imakhilyou37]

Basketball is a really fun sport. I would say the NBA is somewhat of an entertainment business. People pay lots of money to see these world-class players go head to head. Its fun to watch when everyone plays by the rules. Wouldn't it REALLY SUCK if ONE TEAM was allowed to double dribble, and travel, and stay more than 3 seconds in the key, etc.? Im sure the crowd would still love it since this team would be dominating. But how do you think other teams would feel if the ref's weren't giving this team any calls and the team took advantage of this? Same should go for bhangra....Play by the rules. Respect the artform.

I know im a bit late responding to this... But for this arguement to work, that would have to mean if VCU did bhangra empires routine the exact same way, they wouldn't get first. That the judging was bias, such as the team paid the refs or something of that sort in the NBA. As far as i know no one has reason to believe this or has any proof that there was any bias at VIBC, they simply favored modern over traditional... The keyword in your statement is ONE TEAM was allowed to double dribble and the other wasnt... So i don't think this arguement is valid.

Another thing i would say, if you truly want to 'preserve' traditional bhangra... Make a video of all the traditional moves. I'm down to help. Make a video, so teams that dont have a coach, or someone purely traditional in there area can incorporate the moves. Traditional bhangra isn't as accessible to some as it is to others. Modern is MUCH more accessible.

 

[Sher Foundation]

Faizan, you just proved harman's point. I dont know what sammi you are talking about but its not about women mourning for their dead lovers at war. If there is a remote possibility that i am wrong, sammi as a folk dance of punjab is still a joyful one and its very similar to gidah. The end of Mirza Sahiba's love story is a sad one but their love is glorified for its strength and significance. Once again, difference between the story and the dance.

Quite frankly, knowing punjabi, the lyrics, the different moves, should all be criteria for a judge at competitions that pride themselves and their score sheets on being "traditional". It all comes down to the judging criteria - a comp like bruin can easily get away with senior BTF members as judges as the traditional aspect of bhangra is 20 or so points and does not require the nit picking of certain moves.


Pavan

 

[[Sher] Imran]

Agree with P-MacDaddy above. If you are going to claim that BTF people are more qualified judges, then they should not only be able to understand Punjabi songs, but should also know the double meanings/metaphors/idioms/etc in the lyrics (if there are any). Then they can see how each team approaches each song/boli and judge if the choreo/acting/etc is appropriate.

The more traditional teams try to "dance out" the meanings to the bolis, so why shouldn't the traditional judges be knowledgeable in the meanings? Watching youtube everyday doesn't make you qualified, nor does being on a team. It should go beyond that- how truly qualified are you as an analyst if all you can do is plug in numbers into a spreadsheet, but as soon as someone asks you to explain the process you don't know squat?