Teams using cones to frame the stage

[Waleed]

• Personally speaking, credit should be given where credit is due. A team that practices (and performs) a routine with difficult formations with minimal markers should be awarded for their hard work.

how should they be rewarded? and how should this be different than a team that has simple *formations with no makers?

This is a can-o-worms issue, no clear black/white answer but I do have a personal philosophy on this that I'm happy to discuss with you or anyone else privately. I'm curious to hear more thoughts!

However, I think complex vs simple formations is a separate issue (and a way bigger fish). This issue is a more of a technical/execution issue that can be attributed to formations and much more minor in scale in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Mr. Mankiran]

Straight up, the reason we use cones is because everybody else is using them. Granted, we only use 3 cones (only for competition: middle of left stage & center, center, and middle of right stage & center) it makes life a lot easier.

Personally, I think cones shouldn't cover the entire stage, but then again, I don't really care. DO what you need to do to make your dance look good and I suggest buying the flattened cones so they don't pop out on stage.

 

[hsdeol]

• Personally speaking, credit should be given where credit is due. A team that practices (and performs) a routine with difficult formations with minimal markers should be awarded for their hard work.

how should they be rewarded? and how should this be different than a team that has simple *formations with no makers?

This is a can-o-worms issue, no clear black/white answer but I do have a personal philosophy on this that I'm happy to discuss with you or anyone else privately. I'm curious to hear more thoughts!

However, I think complex vs simple formations is a separate issue (and a way bigger fish). This issue is a more of a technical/execution issue that can be attributed to formations and much more minor in scale in the grand scheme of things.

I agree there is no black and white answer I was just picking your brain to see what ideas you have.

Also simple vs complex is another issue, but if were discussing formations its important to look at simple formations with markers, difficult formations with markers, simple without markers, and difficult without markers situations and how they would be judged against each other and if they even should be judged differently. I would personally perfer to dance without markers to simplify the thoughts going through my teammates heads during a performance, but I don't think teams should be docked for stage markers regardless of what they are

 

[mafzal]

1. The markers convo is super interesting. And it has never even been had in the past. Markers are a big part of a teams prep, and should be discussed. I havnt seen this many vets on a thread in a while.

2. Kartik, the circuit vets have been critiquing and discussing for years. Its the new generation that needs to step up now. We simply dont have the time anymore. The newer/younger dancers need to step up and communicate in order to advance this circuit (which has been pretty stagnant of late)

3. This lack of passion for discussion and lack of feedback will eventually lead in a major decline for the circuit (which in my opion is already underway) Were 2006-2011 the golden years? Could be.

+500

I think this was an interesting topic and have read some great discussion so far

 

[mafzal]

how should they be rewarded? and how should this be different than a team that has simple formations with no markers?

This is a can-o-worms issue, no clear black/white answer but I do have a personal philosophy on this that I'm happy to discuss with you or anyone else privately.

How about publically on a new thread? Otherwise... cc me... lol

 

[Gagan-Gill]

1. The markers convo is super interesting. And it has never even been had in the past. Markers are a big part of a teams prep, and should be discussed. I havnt seen this many vets on a thread in a while.

2. Kartik, the circuit vets have been critiquing and discussing for years. Its the new generation that needs to step up now. We simply dont have the time anymore. The newer/younger dancers need to step up and communicate in order to advance this circuit (which has been pretty stagnant of late)

3. This lack of passion for discussion and lack of feedback will eventually lead in a major decline for the circuit (which in my opion is already underway) Were 2006-2011 the golden years? Could be.

+11111

 

[Govind]

have to agree with atinder on this one - I haven't ever deducted points for this b/c it's never been mentioned on the rubric but when it comes to props sitting there idly without being touched and used only as markers, it doesn't impress me. after all i do think the dancers should be positioning themselves primarily with respect to other members of the "TEAM". I saw 3-4 teams use cone markers at Big Apple this year and along with the other panel members remember thinking, wait...that's unfair...and their use was discouraged in post-comp feedback to at least some of the teams.

 

[nubucks]

We only started using markers last year at Northwestern. They made a big difference in our cleanliness, but also in the way that we danced. We went from using other dancers and an innate sense of spacing to more hitting what we knew was our absolute right spot in relation to certain markers.


The argument against markers is that the first way is more fluid, natural, and inherently more skillful. I appreciate being able to give my team clear instructions on where they should be and have them memorize that because as a collegiate team I feel we're always pressed for time. I see the other end of the spectrum, though- teams that develop the right feel for their formations deserve credit for the skill it requires. Markers definitely even the playing field in that regard.

 

[Govind]

sorry i would correct your statement that they "even the playing field" b/c i don't think that represented what it is your post intended to say. i say, by all means practice with them if it helps but primarily you should be using your dancers/team to space yourselves. what i have penalized teams for in the past is "not using the stage" which say if you have a large stage and then confine yourself to only 60% of it with markers you are definitely doing. while the explicit use of markers was not cited as a penalization, restriction of the use of the stage as a result of markers was indeed cited...

 

[voxanimus]

• If we compare this element to Bhangra performance in Punjab from the last 15 years (8 person, comparatively 'simpler' formations), they barely use any pre-placed markers. Curtains open & BOOM, they go at it. Food for thought.

the indian and american bhangra circuits are divergent enough, at this point, for comparisons between the two to be of minimal relevance. american and indian competitive bhangra performances are constructed with widely variant goals in mind, at least imo.


i think there's two different issues being discussed herein: the aesthetic appearance of markers to the spectator, and the conceptual, competitive ramifications of using markers as "crutches."


to sort of conflate the two, i have a question. in the event that marker employment be penalized, should a team that uses markers invisible to the judges (seats in the theater, strategically placed bebes in the audience, whatever) be penalized the same as a team that uses cones or dummy props? in fact, would teams using inconspicuous markers be forced to divulge their usage of them, or not? there's a lot of fuzzy space here.


markers are a tool that teams are using to up the complexity of their formations. the formations being employed today are certainly more complex than those of 5 years ago. anyone with access to youtube can attest to this. why can't markers be accepted as byproducts of the organic evolution of competitive bhangra? if we choose to reject markers as eliciting disingenuous levels of competence, then it follows that we should slash other such elicitors. for example, given two teams with equally excellent choreography, the one with the better mix will come off as "better." is this unfair to the team that did not have access to a good enough DJ for their mix? ostensibly, yes. so then should all teams be forced to use mixes that conform to some standard?

 

[mrgrewal780]

This is where practice comes in. Teams shouldn't be allowed to use cones & if they do, dock points like no tomorrow.

 

[siddyp]

Teams hit AND miss formations, with OR without cones/markers. even if its in the rubric, teams will find ways around it (having a mela at the end and having x number of props arranged at the front). just let it be. its not worth the hassle. lets enjoy bhangra

 

[amancheema]

Teams hit AND miss formations, with OR without cones/markers. even if its in the rubric, teams will find ways around it (having a mela at the end and having x number of props arranged at the front). just let it be. its not worth the hassle. lets enjoy bhangra

I agree with this post.

 

[Waleed]

...why can't markers be accepted as byproducts of the organic evolution of competitive bhangra? if we choose to reject markers as eliciting disingenuous levels of competence, then it follows that we should slash other such elicitors...

Not picking on you Voxanimus but oh balle teri vocabulary de!!

Good thread, thought provoking discourse.

 

[KushK]

I guess markers won...

 

[Gsimz]

Not going to read all this, but we've used markers for the majority of our time in the circuit. This past season we gave it a shot and didn't use them at TDot or BBC. And I must say it is just a mental thing. My opinion has changed on it and I think not using makers is the way to go.

 

[jasraj93]

#StopCones2015 having markers takes away from the performance

 

[Jacquizz Rogers]

Not going to read all this, but we've used markers for the majority of our time in the circuit. This past season we gave it a shot and didn't use them at TDot or BBC. And I must say it is just a mental thing. My opinion has changed on it and I think not using makers is the way to go.

proud of you, simz.

 

[faizan]

Fuck it then. Fuck cones.

 

[ishaankolluri]

I'm young and still very new to the circuit, but as part of a collegiate team with less experience than most of the teams in the circuit, I think we find it very difficult to teach brand new dancers formations without markers, as they're still focusing on learning the many elements & technique of the dance form itself. It becomes hard for them to mentally juggle formations solely relative to the rest of the team while still keeping the moves as true to form as they possibly can.


For what it's worth, of all the vids I've seen of the best teams on the circuit, I can say that I do think a performance without stage markers is an impressive feat of team cohesion. At a higher level of dance, a performance without markers is very executable, and probably should be preferred, but I'm keeping teams like mine in my thoughts when I say that markers act as a form of training wheels for dancers who haven't fully internalized how to do most moves in bhangra, keeping them a bit more focused.


Sorry if i'm just beating a dead horse here. I saw the thread get bumped, read through it, and wanted to offer my perspective. Let me know what you think.


Ishaan