What ever happened to Competition Reviews? BTF's FUTURE-->

[aneeshsahni]

Additionally, what do people want in critiques? Given that there can be, and often are, diametrically opposed viewpoints, the only thing that can be considered universal is cleanliness, but that would be a horrible critique. "You need to be more clean. End critique."

At what point does the critique cease to be useful? A critique is supposed to help a team grow but with so many conflicting viewpoints, I envision it would be difficult for teams, especially new teams, to extract any meaningful information.

As a captain of a new team (in our 2nd year), I definitely prefer conflicting feedback or opinions to nothing at all. If different perspectives are being presented there's the chance that you read a post and it makes you think about something in a different way or makes you think about something you hadn't considered at all before. Even a small sampling of what people thought can be a good thing. If you thought that your jhummar segment was crazy innovative in the best thing ever but nobody mentions it in their posts, then that can be helpful too.


In general, the performance reviews on BTF have been pretty rare lately, particularly for newer teams. This is probably because new teams don't get the chance to meet as many people in the circuit or because people assume their sets will be boring and don't watch them or because their set is actually boring and people don't watch them. That's too bad because, in general, the feedback is probably more critical in order for newer teams to develop (even though it can be useful for all teams).


If you're feeling inspired to post a review, then go for it:
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/post-mixes-and-video-links/princeton-bhangra-aa-dekhen-zara-2013-(2nd-place)/

 

[singhk1]

The problem now is that now people just post mixes and want critiques, which is fine, but it's kind of getting selfish. I believe BTF is dying down a little bit.

After every video posted after a performance, there's the post "What's the song at ....?" I sometimes end up doing this.

Rarely will you see someone other than Swi post a detailed critique. Users used to post them all the time. We all wanted to get better together. In my eyes, this is fading away.

Faizan did videos for a while, K/Sue still posts, Harkiran has random bouts of critiquing. That one random user tells every co-ed team that he's sorry and doesn't mean offense but hates co-ed teams. It hasn't been totally empty, but I think the community is a lot more on facebook now. You can just email or message like 15-20 people who you trust and get feedback


also, I've had a lot of teams assume I hate them because I'm critical in my posts and people aren't used to it. It's much more productive to simply have the conversations over email or pm so you can have back and forths and clarify things.

Don't judge me based on One of my opinions bro, I Sometimes tell teams where they could've improved . And it makes the team just that much better... I'm sorry I don't kiss those teams asses if there could be room for improvement why not tell them it can only do good...Majority of the time I just sit back and enjoy I mean that is the only reason I come on this, for performances and music...just like majority of the ppl on here

When you have an dance like Bhangra and the options of how you do it are just so broad, Ideas are bond to clash and not everyone's going to agree with one another. Maybe you just think I'm coming off disrespectful because Its online or maybe Sometimes I don't explain myself thoroughly but I'm not talking shit...maybe you should just read what I say more carefully considering the fact that you're already writing about me bud

jokes bro jokes, meant to be tongue in cheek. I 100% appreciate you posting rather than not posting at all, that's why I included you! The point I was making is that people are posting and it's not all ass-kissing, i.e. it hasn't been totally empty of people commenting. That's why I mentioned you, and btw I didn't even name you by name on purpose because it wasn't important to the point I was making, you called yourself out!

Well I'm glad you do..I think I'm like the only person on this site who sometimes openly talks about that topic, which ppl don't understand where I'm coming from and take it wrong way... that comment clearly was directed towards me ... Man when a team has clear mistakes I like to point them out when you can see that the team has a lot of potential otherwise I can care less even tho seems like some ppl are just like fantastic, great job (that's what I ment by ass kissing), I'm not talking about all or even a lot but in a Few cases. & those teams sometimes don't get better. It's always fun too watch a team grow and get better that's what bhangra or just dancing is all about anyway.

[SIZE=small]But man on the internet Comments can be misinterpreted which leads to one thing or another even though there was no need, Just different ideas, different ways of approaching them no one is right or wrong [/SIZE]

 

[HarmanToor]

Below are a few thoughts that have ran through my mind a few times these past 2 seasons, about BTF and the dying bhangra scene in general. Whether it has anything to do with this thread, we will find out, but for now, it's just a collection of ideas and feelings that I want to share. I don't really make any points about critiques because I don't value them as highly as others, but I do list a few ideas/reasons which I feel are affecting Bhangra today. My ideas may be offensive to some, for that I apologize. Yes, I have a lot of time on my hands today lol, it's going to be a long one!

(note: I will be diving into the modern vs folk topic a tad bit, but not to start a discussion, rather just point out something I noticed)

1) I feel the #1 reason why BTF is losing its grip on the bhangra scene because everyone is getting old, and as a result we are all slowly moving on from bhangra so that we can give more attention to our personal lives. This is normal behavior and it happens in every sport but I think we might have failed in passing on our passion and what we enjoyed about bhangra to the next generation because I don't see as many up and coming teams as I use to. I guess I could just be speaking for myself on this one, I know there are a few of you that teach classes to young dancers but the popularity and relevance of bhangra is receding ever so hastily. This is a big problem that we need to address.

2) Too many shady competitions man.. too many competitions that cheat winning teams out of their earnings.. too many competitions that cheap out on venues and hotels and liaisons and accommodations... too many competitions that rig the results either for political or financial gains.. too many GOOD competitions that are not hosting anymore (fusion, where you at?!). This is also a big problem that we need to address. Forget making all these handbooks for controlling the violence, we need a board that controls the quality of competitions.

3) Too much anti-modern critiquing from 2010-2011 has pretty much cut the balls off any team that wanted to explore this dance further, it literally stopped bhangra from evolving dead in its tracks. Comments like "too modern", "too many gimmicks" and "not folk enough" has been one of the main reasons why bhangra hasn't progressed in the last 18 months, and one of the main reasons why bhangra(and BTF) is dying today. As much as you all hated it, modern bhangra moves and gimmicks were responsible for some of the most memorable moments in bhangra stage history. Nobody remembers or talks about how so n so did the original phumniya so well, or how they did the most basic unvaried form of chaal so well.. it was always the gimmicks and modern bhangra moves that made people speak out and be excited about whats to come in the bhangra scene. Now that this whole anti-modern movement has spun into existence, don't expect to see anything exciting on stage aside from basic bhangra. It's obvious that some of you prefer it this way, preserving the culture and all, but for most people who are like me who don't dance but get bored easily of watching the same formula of moves/formations/ideas jumbled together in 1 set performed by every team again and again.. this is a huuuuugee blow! especially for grabbing the attention of the next generation of dancers. Their mentality will be "if its already been done on stage from 2000-2010, and modern bhangra and thinking outside the box isn't welcome anymore, then what purpose do I have learning bhangra? it's the same old shit on replay".

4) This whole anti-bullying, anti-rivalry movement is really lame as well. What good is a competition without a little rivalry? I remember back when I first started (2008-2009), the rivalry scene in toronto ALONE was worth following, now that everyones acting all nice to each other in fear of the consequences of BTF and the bhangra community, theres nothing to be excited for. Now I know a certain few individuals will read this and think harmantoors a fucking backwards barbaric goon but hear me out, I'm not condoning violence in bhangra, especially against women but a little friendly competition driven drama here and there would be great for the scene right now. BTF is WAY more exciting when people are talking shit 2 each other, WAY more exciting when rivalries call each other out on stage, WAY more exciting when there is drama. Ever notice whenever these call outs or shit talking dramas pop off, btfs online users instantly increases by like 75-100? let's face it, we're humans and we all love this kinda shit. BTF today still has the occasional shit talking, but it's so meaningless.. it usually consists of a few older users ganging up on a new user who says somethin dumb or mixers making fun of each others mixes.. thats pretty much btf drama summed up in 1 sentence, nothing like it use to be.

5) God help us, what the fuck happened to the music? I swear, back in 08-09, new up and coming musicians that had real talent use to pop up every 2-3 months.. I can't even think of a new remixer whose come up in the last year who has shocked the bhangra team mixing world. How is this even possible? I mean, you new guys today have the best resources available.. the shit we had back in the day were the worst loops, the worst beats and just the basics in sound effects, but we crushed that scene the best we could. Klasikhs, Kush, Gsimz, 2nyce, ASG, Saab, DJ Gopi Gill, Violdinder, Rajbir SGPD, HarmanToor, Swi, Sargam, FCB etc etc the list goes on, all these remixers spawned in what was supposed to be the cheesiest and most concept driven era in bhangra team mixing history but ended up being the most legendary, inspiring and best sounding era of bhangra team mixing history. And today there is nobody to replace us and thats a damn shame. All these new remixers (granted you're trying and thats all that matters) put out these mixes that either miss or hit, but as soon as somebody says its not up to their liking, the original poster immediately replies and labels the mix as a "work in progress" or just a "rough version".. you don't hand in a rough copy essay to your professor do you? finish your work, take your time, make sure everything is perfect and to your standard before releasing it. Don't throw out 50 concept mixes in attempts to create a brand name, it doesn't work like that.

All in all, I feel that a combination of the factors that I have mentioned above lead to a more boring (but more stable) bhangra scene today, these factors also play into why I think older bhangra dancers/mixers, especially from toronto are leaving the scene and BTF. My rant is over, thanks for listening all!

 

[faizan]

What good is a competition without a little rivalry?

see: World's Best Bhangra Crew 2013

 

[rajkaran]

Couldn't have said it better myself, Harman. I especially agree with #1 & #3




...I'd also like to add another thing that some comments prior kind of touched on. Many users on BTF choose who to believe based on reputation. I'm certainly guilty of this from time to time. I'm not just talking about believing critiques from well qualified judges, or BTF senior members, or captains of "Elite" teams. I guess what I'm trying to say is that BTF is getting (or perhaps always has been) to be way too clique-y. There's no harm in getting a critique from the captain of the random bhangra team in North Dakota. This ties in with the whole idea of mistrust in the bhangra scene, I guess. I think it's fair to say that no one is trying to sabotage anyone else anymore lol. This also goes back to Basim's comment of allowing the "new generation" to step up and be heard (and trusted).

 

[amancheema]

This whole anti-bullying, anti-rivalry movement is really lame as well.

+1

 

[amancheema]

too many competitions that cheap out on venues and hotels and liaisons and accommodations... too many competitions that rig the results either for political or financial gains.

+1

 

[amancheema]

I'd critique - but keepin it 100 would just get me banned

 

[Armaan]

This is the kind of feedback the entire community needs to see and absorb. Can we begin to start steering the discussion towards things we can actually act upon in the community and specifically on BTF? Look back at the first post...

Before we start shooting out things to improve the bhangra scene, as BTF is the main bhangra hub for bhangra enthusiasts, what can we do to BTF or what can we add/subtract/change to make the online bhangra community more entertaining, meaningful, impactful, and most of all "addictive" again?

 

[nkrishnan]

I don’t comment too much, but I thought having a new generation perspective might help a bit with this discussion. I’m obviously not speaking for everyone, this is just my point of view

As someone who is relatively new to the circuit, one thing I wanted to say is that I (and my guess is the majority of new age dancers) have a great respect for every dancer that was active in the last 6 years. Because of that, I really look for comments and critiques from the veterans when it comes to our routine (whether it is positive or negative). I don’t think new dancers are given enough credit when it comes to us having thick skin, we can take criticism and we incorporate it as much as we can. I think it’s all about how you present your criticism. Obviously if your criticism is “this set was terrible, your dancers jhoomer form is really bad”, it’ll come off really poorly. But saying “some things you should prioritize are X,Y, and Z but you do A really well”, then it’s easier to take that constructively rather than get defensive. But people should not be afraid to comment, it should be encouraged. As the captain of my team, I really implore all of BTF to go through more videos than just the placing or name teams and give us comments so we can improve too, because all too often our performance is skipped over and we wonder how we might have done our set better.

I also completely agree with the anti-modern movement point that was made above. It ties in to the point about competitions as well, because at the end of the day these competitions need to attract an audience and the general audience tends to favor modern sets. I’m not sure if this is true, but my guess is that competition turnouts are probably not as great because sets are less appealing to the masses. I could be wrong, so please correct me if I am. But as a team that likes to prioritize creativity, we feel marginalized when the most vocal opinions are those that demand stronger folk aspects from routines. I think that modern and creative routines should be respected as much as a folk routine, and there’s no need to put down any opinion on that. It’s unfortunate that if a person says they like modern bhangra, then they are berated for not respecting the true nature of the dance.

As for the newer generation, I also think we’re legitimately just lazy. I think it’ll take a more concerted effort of people our age to get on btf and post more. I’m sure there’s an aspect of “we don’t know anything, we should listen to the other people who know this stuff better”, but that also needs to be broken at a certain point.

As for things to improve, I think the first step would be to just start encouraging comments again. One suggestion (idk how feasible this is) is to make the mix available only after a thread has reached a certain number of comments? Another suggestion would be to withhold the literal rubrics from judges post competition until feedback has been written? I can probably think of some more if I sit down, but I feel like an upvoting system similar to reddit could have some sort of application on the site (haven’t quite figured out how)

Anyway, this is just my two cents, not sure if it helped anything

 

[Armaan]

As for the newer generation, I also think we’re legitimately just lazy. I think it’ll take a more concerted effort of people our age to get on btf and post more. I’m sure there’s an aspect of “we don’t know anything, we should listen to the other people who know this stuff better”, but that also needs to be broken at a certain point.

You don't understand how much I appreciate this comment. I always made it a point when I was captain to force every team member to create a BTF account and I would check the BTF members listing to make sure they did. After that I would always tell them here and there to check stuff and BTF and post and the most I can do to really force them is to take the first step and have them all make an account. From there it's obviously up to them.

I definitely agree that in terms of community engagement, the newer generation of dancers most certainly do not engage in the community as much. Now everyone is different, but from experience, many people on my old team I think face the "we don't know anything, we should listen to the people who know this stuff better" just like you said. I joined our school's bhangra team not knowing anything about bhangra at all. At most I could only do a little bit of freestyle hip hop, but I had two left-feet when it came to bhangra. But because I loved the music and dance, I just kept working at it and proactively tried to be a part of the online and offline bhangra community more and more. The more I did, the quicker I picked up my bhangra knowledge base and the more comfortable I became in the scene and how things work. I think its this type of stuff that is missing in many of the younger dancers. Out of the current roster of my team, I think only a few check BTF here or there, and at most only 1 of them posts... that too once in a blue moon.

The more I look at it, much of the posting that goes on here on BTF is done by the older dancers, who as someone said earlier, have less and less time now to post and be as engaged.

What can we do to help pass on our engagement to the younger dancers? Clearly they will not just pick it up on their own and the slowdown in BTF is proof to that. Let's focus on the online community for now and how we can change or evolve it to help it become more attractive to these younger dancers and bhangra enthusiasts.

 

[KushK]

As for the newer generation, I also think we’re legitimately just lazy. I think it’ll take a more concerted effort of people our age to get on btf and post more. I’m sure there’s an aspect of “we don’t know anything, we should listen to the other people who know this stuff better”, but that also needs to be broken at a certain point.

You don't understand how much I appreciate this comment. I always made it a point when I was captain to force every team member to create a BTF account and I would check the BTF members listing to make sure they did. After that I would always tell them here and there to check stuff and BTF and post and the most I can do to really force them is to take the first step and have them all make an account. From there it's obviously up to them.

I think you are the first captain I heard that did that. Most of the captains or teams I know told their dancers to stay off of BTF. I feel like personally with a lot of teams staying off of BTF it helped them clean up their team image. Then again that might just be us haha...

However I do agree that the non-critiquing has made bhangra boring in a sense. When teams were posting their videos and mixes, they use to get like 4,000 views and 30-40 comments easily. Honestly whether it was garbage comments or proper critiques you always came out with 5-8 constructive comments that helped your team the next time around.

I honestly think BTF was what changed bhangra. Good sets, bad sets.. everyone use to get shat on. Motivated us to go back and dance harder, make sets that our rival teams coudn't think of.

I just think the best days of bhangra are behind us. I've been around for about 6 odd years now and I feel like when Khalsa Junction and Sher foundation boys dropped bhanrga they felt like bhangra was coming to an end as well. However we had some game-changing sets in the last 5 years and It was an amazing experience to be up there and competing against the big guns... but the fire just isn't there anymore. The last time I saw more than 1 legit set in a single season was probably 2010-2011. Now we get like 1 good, proper set every few comps and everyone flips out. People missed out man... but I think Its up to the veterans now to help the young generation step it up and bring it back!

 

[J Wong]

IDEAS


1. Modernize the user experience. Given that BTF has significantly grown into a premier bhangra website I think that the effort can be put in now to refresh the site. Perhaps a group of people can start from scratch and code an HTML 5 site with a blog interface (i.e. main article and a comments section) Clean lines with a minimalist interface are always aesthetically pleasing.


- Track player widget? Embed upload files directly into the post for instant playing.
- Profiles? Social-network-esqe but completely stripped (i.e. only general profile and message function). I know we have them but they could use a refresh. (Competitions could use this for better information sharing?)


2. Delete the Bhangra Wiki. It is rarely used and generally limited in content.


3. Stop deleting posts simply because they have been beaten to death. (I.E. Folk vs Modern etc) Nowadays, these are the only posts that remotely generate interest. I don't think its appropriate for a moderator to attempt to dictate the conversation, if the people want to talk about it again why not let them? What harm does it cause? Some posters might not have posted before and may add valuable insight.


4. Initially, a group of people should be tasked with writing posts such as competition reviews (if they attended) etc. I think this would be the easiest way to start garnering interest again because if no one posts no one will comment.


Again these are some random ideas.

 

[J Wong]

As for the newer generation, I also think we’re legitimately just lazy. I think it’ll take a more concerted effort of people our age to get on btf and post more. I’m sure there’s an aspect of “we don’t know anything, we should listen to the other people who know this stuff better”, but that also needs to be broken at a certain point.

You don't understand how much I appreciate this comment. I always made it a point when I was captain to force every team member to create a BTF account and I would check the BTF members listing to make sure they did. After that I would always tell them here and there to check stuff and BTF and post and the most I can do to really force them is to take the first step and have them all make an account. From there it's obviously up to them.

I think you are the first captain I heard that did that. Most of the captains or teams I know told their dancers to stay off of BTF. I feel like personally with a lot of teams staying off of BTF it helped them clean up their team image. Then again that might just be us haha...

However I do agree that the non-critiquing has made bhangra boring in a sense. When teams were posting their videos and mixes, they use to get like 4,000 views and 30-40 comments easily. Honestly whether it was garbage comments or proper critiques you always came out with 5-8 constructive comments that helped your team the next time around.

I honestly think BTF was what changed bhangra. Good sets, bad sets.. everyone use to get shat on. Motivated us to go back and dance harder, make sets that our rival teams coudn't think of.

I just think the best days of bhangra are behind us. I've been around for about 6 odd years now and I feel like when Khalsa Junction and Sher foundation boys dropped bhanrga they felt like bhangra was coming to an end as well. However we had some game-changing sets in the last 5 years and It was an amazing experience to be up there and competing against the big guns... but the fire just isn't there anymore. The last time I saw more than 1 legit set in a single season was probably 2010-2011. Now we get like 1 good, proper set every few comps and everyone flips out. People missed out man... but I think Its up to the veterans now to help the young generation step it up and bring it back!

I think competitions need to facilitate the resurgence of bhangra.

What needs to change:
1. Dubious judging practices
2. Choosing the same teams every year (its hard on small teams not being accepted anywhere)
3. Vary the rubric (maybe a competition specific aspect)(mandatory kato segment? 1 specific song in the mix? etc)
4. Organizers need to GTFO of judging.
5. Competitions need to remember that they need teams therefore dont treat us poorly simply because you want to maximize on profits.

 

[arnab]

3. Stop deleting posts simply because they have been beaten to death. (I.E. Folk vs Modern etc) Nowadays, these are the only posts that remotely generate interest. I don't think its appropriate for a moderator to attempt to dictate the conversation, if the people want to talk about it again why not let them? What harm does it cause? Some posters might not have posted before and may add valuable insight.

+1 to this. i bet there are a lot of people on the site who are newer that would really like to see and take part in these conversations. yes, some things will be said over and over again...but once in a while something truly valuable comes out of it (e.g. one of Gibbs' memorable posts a while ago on traditionality points in rubrics)

I also think that we should try to come up with a few threads that engage the newer members of the circuit. As someone who's heavily involved with the circuit now...but wasn't around to see BTF mature to what it is, sometimes i feel like i may get a "who's this noob?" vibe if i begin to post very in-depth reviews. if we had something to make the forum more inviting to people who haven't been around for 4+ years...then i would definitely feel more comfortable posting frequently. just my two cents!

 

[lavesh]

i agree with this topic...and for that reason, ill bite:


any team that wants a thorough review, please pm me...in the comps that i have judged, i think most teams have been pretty happy with how thorough my critiques are, so ill extend that to any team that wants another perspective...send me ur vid, and ill get on a call with u and go thru what i thought


im probably not speaking for only myself, but the 2 reasons i dont write reviews on btf is because i dont really know if the teams care/will get anything out of my perspective and i dont have a whole lot of free time in general lol

 

[faizan]

Someone earlier mentioned that Facebook is becoming more popular for the circuit, this shift reflects our society's general shift towards efficiency and consolidation (a la smartphones and the internet). Here is a staggering non self pump stat.

The wbbc fb page has gotten 2,200 facebook likes in four months. In that time it has also logged roughly 11,000 individual votes for five mini challenges. We just got 92 likes because we said gcc just arrived. It started out as a marketing tool, but it taught me a lot about the psyche of the circuit and desi people in general.

I think the layout of fb group pages is perfect. It has the functionality of btf times ten. Additionally, it works seamlessly with our life. If we really want to move the circuit forward, its time to take the circuit out of the studio apartment that is btf and move to a more obvious choice.

Discussion boards have their place, but they are by no means adequate to connect and advance the circuit. All major sports leagues now have well thought out websites with video, blogs, discussion via comments.

And on top of that, a facebook like or comment is second nature, almost like blinking. Btf should move as a concept to facebook or twitter. POL went extinct and so will btf, and its time for the circuit to evolve. We could connect with the world, with each other and with the next generation. We hope you will post as much as you want this weekend On the WBBC facebook page and lets see what we come up with. Live tweet, comment, post pictures with your friends, hashtag, GO HARD.

Time to move on.

Sent from my iphone.

 

[rajkaran]

Sent from my iphone.

Smooth...hahahaha

 

[Armaan]

Enjoying where this is going... lets keep the ideas and discussion of where BTF can go in terms of features and platforms we can use or take advantage of

 

[J Wong]

IDEAS


1. Modernize the user experience. Given that BTF has significantly grown into a premier bhangra website I think that the effort can be put in now to refresh the site. Perhaps a group of people can start from scratch and code an HTML 5 site with a blog interface (i.e. main article and a comments section) Clean lines with a minimalist interface are always aesthetically pleasing.


- Track player widget? Embed upload files directly into the post for instant playing.
- Profiles? Social-network-esqe but completely stripped (i.e. only general profile and message function). I know we have them but they could use a refresh. (Competitions could use this for better information sharing?)


2. Delete the Bhangra Wiki. It is rarely used and generally limited in content.

Features and platforms.